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View Diary: Who really beat Qaddafi? (28 comments)

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  •  You only show targets hit over the last few days. (0+ / 0-)

    Of course, bombing has been going on for much longer than that. No one denies that Lybians themselves made the biggest contribution to Qaddafi overthrow. But it is hard to imagine how they would have done it without NATO bombing.

    •  I said it would take longer without NATO (0+ / 0-)

      When you say "hard to imagine how they would have done it without NATO bombing" are you imagining that they would have just given up at some point? Because that's the alternative.

      I don't know but look at the pounding they've take in Syria and they haven't given up. It took the Vietnamese 30 years but they never gave up.

      I only show targets hit over the past few days but I give you links were you can find data for the whole war so you should come back with facts rather than falling back on what you think anyway.

      AFRICOM spokeswoman Nicole Dalrymple said in a statement on June 29th. “As of today, and since 31 March, the U.S. has flown a total of 3,475 sorties in support of OUP. Of those, 801 were strike sorties, 132 of which actually dropped ordnance.”

      So US planes bombed 132 targets in Libya as of June 29. Is that what you think won the war?

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Sat Aug 27, 2011 at 02:03:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here's a NATO report 23 Aug. 2011 (0+ / 0-)
        http://www.nato.int/...
        23 Aug. 2011
        Press briefing on Libya

        by Oana Lungescu, the NATO Spokesperson and Colonel Roland Lavoie, Operation ‘’Unified Protector’’ military spokesperson
        ...
        NATO and our Partners have conducted a highly effective campaign in support of the Libyan people under the mandate of the United Nations Security Council.

        Over the past five months, we had steadily degraded a war machine, built up over more than 40 years. Today, we'll past the milestone of 20,000 sorties flown. We have damaged or destroyed almost 5,000 legitimate military targets, including over 800 tanks and artillery pieces.
        ...
        Col. Roland Lavoie: I could take this one. We do not coordinate with the opposition. We do our missions which are basically to do the No-Fly Zone, the embargo and the protection of the civilian population. Of course, we obtained information from our Allied nations who have presence on the ground to know what is going on and to know where and when we should act to better accomplish our mandate.
        ...
        Q: Could you just clarify that last answer? You said you obtaine information from Allied nations with a presence on the ground who know what's going on. There's been some media reports stating that British and French special forces have been arming and training the rebels
        ...
        Col. Roland Lavoie: You could understand that as a spokesperson for NATO I can't comment, although there's national activities in Libya. But of course, in general terms, we do have eyes and ears in the country which is basically that intelligence is basically merged with the intelligence we could get from our own means also for this operation.

        •  The issue is not whether foreign agents (0+ / 0-)

          were on the ground. the first one were from the CIA Tripoli station and were on the ground before Feb 17. They are everywhere.

          The question is who did the fighting, developed the strategy, recruited & trained the forces, and won the war? I say it was the Libyans.

          All those wounded young freedom fighters in the hospitals now knew what they were doing, who they were fighting and why. They weren't cannon fodder for an imperialist aggression.

          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

          by Clay Claiborne on Sat Aug 27, 2011 at 06:32:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Without NATO and other foreign help (0+ / 0-)

            the rebels would have been decimated. Just watch any youtube video to see how they fight and you will realize this. They run out into the street and shoot from the hip and then run back to cover. I've yet to see any video that shows them as a serious disciplined fighting force.

            You need look no further than how long it has taken for them to take Brega and Ras Lanuf in the east which are close to Benghazi.

            http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/...

            Qatari special forces led Libyan attack on compound

            AUGUST 24, 2011

            While Foreign Secretary William Hague and former British Army chief Gen Sir Michael Jackson were busily promoting the argument that the Libyan people had taken Tripoli on their own, it has emerged that foreign forces played a significant role in yesterday's storming of Col Gaddafi's compound.

            At one stage, Nato commanders had to ask the rebels to hold back from the compound while the RAF launched a final missile attack on Gaddafi's HQ.

            And, according to The First Post's defence expert Robert Fox, members of the Qatari special forces, trained by Britain, could be seen clearly directing the final assault on the compound.

            The Arab emirate of Qatar has already emerged as a major supporter of the new Libya, arming the rebels over recent months and playing host today to an international conference which will see a billion-dollar-plus fund started towards the rebuilding of war-torn Libya.

            •  I'll bet you predicted NATO boots on the ground. (0+ / 0-)

              Where you one of those? There might have well been some NATO hush puppies on the ground as forward air controllers and other functions. I for one don't doubt it but I also suspect that their numbers were in the dozens, not in the hundreds, and since I don't subscribe to the super hero Rambo theory of warfare, I don't credit them with very much.

              And if you think that the whole Arab uprising in Libya was actually being lead by these Brits dressed as Arabs like in the movie Lawrence of Arab, you need to lose your preconceptions &learn more about this revolution.

              I know Qatar supports the NTC, they've made no secret about that but that doesn't prove anything Robert Fox says about QSF is true, isn't he one of the media people that regularly promotes intels views of things?

              You keep quoting various sources that are now claiming to have knowledge of SF ops in Libya. Do you also generally believe these same source when they deny SF ops in other areas? I doubt them always.

              I said in my diary why I am suspicious of these stories about SF ops in Libya. Regardless of whether the stories are true or false, why are they coming out now?

              Now as to the rebels being decimated. Why weren't they decimated in the first month? Qaddafi had a slaughter feast in that first month. 700-800 protesters murdered in Tripoli on 2/21, 2000 in Benghazi before that. That was before the protesters took up arms and became freedom fighters. That they did take up arms and rather than turn tail and run should have been Qaddafi's first clue that your decimation theory wasn't going to work. But he kept killing none the less, probably about 7000 before NATO came in.

              Of course all of those weren't #FF, Qaddafi was shelling Misrata with cluster munition and firing Grad rockets into liberated areas so the majority of those were Libya civilians. But more and more of the civilians themselves took up arms.

              It is estimated that Qaddafi has killed about 20,000 to this point yet the whole country is rising against him and the liberation army is larger than ever.

              Those were heroes running out into the clear to get a bust off before their barrels heated up and no matter how many Qaddfafi or his mercenaries killed, another brave Libyan or two stepped forward to take his place. So you see, your declamation theory is flawed, as has been proven in Vietnam, among other places.

              This was a victory of the Libyan people. The piece you cite above reveals the real value of NATO's air power. NATO pounded Qaddafi's HQ just before the #FF ground assault, and a number of times before that, and yet as soon as the #FF entered the compound they met the fiercest resistance of the whole Tripoli campaign. It took 3 or 4 days of slogging it out in fire fights. Now, taking that battle as an example, are you going to claim that it was NATO and not the Libyan fighters that took Qaddafi's compound?

              If Qaddafi's compound had been so throughly bombed, it's a wonder that his famous raised fist statue was still okay. During a lot of the amphibious operations in WW2 the Navy brass knew that the naval shelling and air assaults on islands before the marines went in would be only mildly effective against a dug in enemy but it was important to buck up the troops before many of them walked into certain death.

              Anyway, NATO has probably bombed Qaddafi's compound more than any other target in Tripoli and still there were pro-Qaddafi forces with a lot of fight left that had to be taken out on the ground. Killing dug in soldiers from the air still ain't all that easy.

              So far, we have seen no indications that NATO massacred hundreds of thousands of pro-Qaddafi forces around Tripoli. No, the reason Tripoli fell so fast is that when push came to shove not more than a few thousand Qaddafi loyalist were willing to fight for him. That is the simple truth of it that you will have to learn to live with.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Sat Aug 27, 2011 at 10:21:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Reports of special forces on the ground (0+ / 0-)

                since start of NATO hostilities.

                http://www.nytimes.com/...
                C.I.A. Agents in Libya Aid Airstrikes and Meet Rebels

                March 30, 2011

                While President Obama has insisted that no American military ground troops participate in the Libyan campaign, small groups of C.I.A. operatives have been working in Libya for several weeks as part of a shadow force of Westerners that the Obama administration hopes can help bleed Colonel Qaddafi’s military, the officials said.

                In addition to the C.I.A. presence, composed of an unknown number of Americans who had worked at the spy agency’s station in Tripoli and others who arrived more recently, current and former British officials said that dozens of British special forces and MI6 intelligence officers are working inside Libya. The British operatives have been directing airstrikes from British jets and gathering intelligence about the whereabouts of Libyan government tank columns, artillery pieces and missile installations, the officials said.

      •  They could have been defeated by Qaddafi. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Claudius Bombarnac

        It was not just an option but a likely scenario at one point.

        •  He killed 7000 before NATO and they (0+ / 0-)

          keep on coming. Why hadn't he already beaten them before 3/17?

          Are you also routing for Assad in Syria? How many go you think he will need to kill before they stop protesting or take up arms seriously?

          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

          by Clay Claiborne on Sat Aug 27, 2011 at 06:22:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I said nothing about Assad. I have no idea where (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Claudius Bombarnac

            you got that. As you may recall, Qaddafi was beating them and captured a lot of their territory by the time NATO got in. Maybe they would have beaten him regardless, maybe not.  

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