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View Diary: Republican political leaders want to prevent you from using birth control (160 comments)

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  •  I wouldn't presume... (2+ / 0-)
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    TDDVandy, Pandoras Box

    as a man, to tell women who they should and shouldn't have sex with. That's up to them. However, I would argue that being opposed to female autonomy on the issue of abortion and/or birth control might well be a red flag for other undesirable characteristics of that potential mate.

    •  Oh, don't get me wrong (0+ / 0-)

      I am in agreement here.  I'm just pointing out the perspective that may be happening with progressive men, many of whom -- I'm guessing here -- don't understand why this is so important just because WE are doing the right thing.

      I think men and women should both have autonomy in terms of reproductive rights.  (And yes, men have reproductive rights, too -- if you can slap me with child support payments for 18 years I certainly have the right to prevent that from happening.)

      27, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-07 (originally), liberal-leaning independent

      by TDDVandy on Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 12:10:45 PM PDT

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      •  except (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnva

        you don't have the right to FORCE someone to have an abortion.  you certainly have the right to only have sex with a partner who has views that match your own

        and, of course, you certainly have the right to take as many precautions as you deem fit

        •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pandoras Box

          Again... I think the problem is that even progressive men don't intuitively understand women's reproductive issues.  I think it would be more productive to have a meaningful dialogue to bring some more understanding rather than chastising progressive men for NOT understanding this issue.

          I'm certainly not arguing that I should have the right to FORCE someone to have an abortion.  Aside from that, however, I have as much of a right to reproductive autonomy as a woman does -- the comment was expanding on my complaint about women who apparently think the decision about whether or not to have a child is hers alone (if you do get pregnant, yes, but I have as much of a right to prevent that from happening in the first place.)

          I live in a state with abstinence-only sex education, so apologies if I don't exactly trust women to use birth control properly.  It's not their fault.  :)

          27, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-07 (originally), liberal-leaning independent

          by TDDVandy on Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 01:03:56 PM PDT

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          •  You have "autonomy" in that it's up to you... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            arlene, Pandoras Box

            to decide who you're going to have consensual sex with. After that, your autonomy ends, because you no longer are biologically going to be the one carrying any resulting fetus. Abortion rights stem from women's right to control their own body and medical privacy, so it's no longer anyone's decision but theirs whether to carry a fetus to term once pregnancy occurs. Biology dictates that male reproductive autonomy ends after sex occurs, while female reproductive autonomy ends after the pregnancy is over. That's the only equitable way to resolve the question of conflicting rights.

            AFTER a child is born, then a different set of rights kick in: those of the child to be supported by its parents. That is the basis for the 18+ years of child support: it's not about the rights of the mother; it's about the needs and rights of the child. So male reproductive autonomy is irrelevant to the question of child support, because the two questions have nothing to do with each other.

            And, of course, men should be protected from things like paternity fraud, ideally (women have an obligation to name the correct father of their child, both out of respect for the rights of the man and respect for the rights of their child). But this is really a fairly a trivial issue when compared to the reproductive autonomy problems that women have faced and continue to face. And frankly, I'm very wary of being associated with any sort of "male rights activism", given how many of the proponents of that school of thought seem to be raging misogynist dickbags. Not saying you necessarily are sympathizing with them, but just warning that you should be careful about how you come off when discussing this issue, especially with women.

            •  I think right now (1+ / 0-)
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              Pandoras Box

              My viewpoint on all this is being affected by a recent conversation I had with my girlfriend, in which she asked if I would still use a condom if she were on the pill, I said yes, and she got pissed.

              This is really what I'm having trouble understanding.

              27, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-07 (originally), liberal-leaning independent

              by TDDVandy on Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 01:54:48 PM PDT

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              •  That sounds like less of a conflict of "rights"... (1+ / 0-)
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                Pandoras Box

                and more of an issue of communicating feelings, as well as trust on at least one person's part. You've got the right to stop having sex with her if she insists on you going without a condom. She's a got right to stop having sex with you if you insist on using one. Those are the only relevant "rights". But, of course, human relationships are about much more than just "rights": it's also about having respect for each other's feelings.

                She probably feels like you're saying you don't trust her, for whatever reason. You feel like she's saying she doesn't respect your reproductive autonomy. I'd just discuss it further with her so that each of you can better understand where the other is coming from, if you think it's an important issue. If you can't come to agreement or compromise, then each of you have to respect that, too.

                (I feel like a marriage counselor, here! lol)

                •  Heh, yeah. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pandoras Box

                  I basically said "what's the harm in taking extra precaution?"  I admit to not knowing THAT much about the pill (I also grew up in an "abstinence-only" state, though I at least had parents who explained condoms to me.)  So I may be under the misimpression that there's still a possibility of pregnancy even if a woman is on the pill and takes it consistently.

                  I've heard plenty of stories about "accidental" pregnancies to be freaked out about it.  Though when you get down to it it usually involves a man who didn't use a condom and a woman who probably stopped taking the pill.

                  I do think there is some validity in the "male rights" argument about not having to support a child that isn't biologically your child.  That's it.  They pretty much are misogynist dickbags otherwise.

                  27, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-07 (originally), liberal-leaning independent

                  by TDDVandy on Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 02:18:07 PM PDT

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                  •  The pill is not 100% effective. (1+ / 0-)
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                    Pandoras Box

                    And using condoms + the pill DOES decrease the chances of accidental pregnancy, so you do have a valid argument there, especially if you are very concerned about preventing that. But there's still some risk of pregnancy no matter what you do to prevent it. It's just something you have to accept when you have sex with someone. Some countries (e.g., the Netherlands) encouraging doubling up on contraceptive methods among teens especially, and as a consequence have the lowest teen birthrates in the world. But we'd have to get over some of our aversion to actually TALKING about sex in this country before we can get to that.

                    As I said, I agree that men have a right to hear the truth about paternity, and that women have an obligation to tell the truth about it as far as they know it (it's fraud, otherwise). However, I also understand some of why women lie about it sometimes: they are worried about not having a man around to help them provide for their child. Lying isn't ever justified, but I think it's worth noting that women who lie about it are usually women who are in a bad situation in part because of the behavior of other men.

                    •  Agreed. (1+ / 0-)
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                      Pandoras Box

                      I am very concerned about preventing pregnancy... I'm not ready to be a father.  But, I think what happened here is not that I'm against women's rights, but more that my own personal experiences mean my perspective is "why is it so important to make it so the guy doesn't have to wear a condom?"  Forgetting, of course, that again, you're dealing with a lot of dumbass guys who refuse to wear one.

                      Yeah, this country is backwards in a lot of ways.  There are some segments of our society that actually seem to GLORIFY teen pregnancy, as shocking as it may seem.  I've always found it ironic that the pro-life movement made it such that Christian conservatives no longer stigmatize unwed teenage mothers ("at least she didn't have an abortion" is the normal reaction to it now.)

                      27, white male, TX-26 (current), TN-07 (originally), liberal-leaning independent

                      by TDDVandy on Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 03:00:26 PM PDT

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                  •  you absolutely have a right to use extra (0+ / 0-)

                    birth control

                    I think if the situation were reversed, and men were the ones who were supposed to take "the pill" (and they are working on developing one), I would NEVER trust him to have taken his bc consistently if I was worried about getting pregnant.  Not because I think men are essentially jerks, but because they are so essentially human (just like women).

            •  you are so right about this (0+ / 0-)
              many of the proponents of that school of thought seem to be raging misogynist dickbags.

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