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View Diary: I wasn't in favor of OWS. Now I am. (206 comments)

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  •  They'll love it. (0+ / 0-)

    It plays right into confirmation bias.

    The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

    by atheistben on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 08:14:00 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  We know how you feel about OWS from (18+ / 0-)

      your diary here.

      You wrote that post a month ago. You told protesters to forget the polls. You asked what change was good change? You told them they would be marginalized.

      Hat trick of wrong.

      I'm sure you have no such biases as you accuse others of here. Is it really so hard to believe that intelligent and measured people have determined that their exhaustive efforts to change the system from within have been ineffective? And is it really so hard to admit that, minimally, the OWS movement has changed the national conversation from austerity to fairness?

      •  What three things were wrong? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Polls of support still don't matter when people don't know what they're supporting, specifically. There's a FP story today talking about Rasmussen and their polling of the generic Republican candidate's different from the actual Republicans. Once people know what they're supporting specifically, those levels of support change.

        And seriously, what good change has come from OWS? What has improved the lives of everyday people that OWS has brought about?

        The efforts to change the system from within have been ineffective. I get that. But it's still a better approach than trying to change the system from the outside. From the outside you encounter all kinds of worse resistance.

        Honestly, I don't think OWS has changed national conversation - except perhaps for reducing discussion of Obama's jobs bill. Even if the conversation has changed from austerity to fairness, it doesn't matter unless it changes votes in Congress. And I'm not seeing that happening. The questions of austerity and fairness will be decided by Congress, the president, and the Supreme Court. Unless the conversation changes the decisions of those people, it didn't have an impact. And I'm not seeing any changes in the decisions of those people due to OWS.

        The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

        by atheistben on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:47:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  angstall told you what 3 things in the comment (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          angstall, James Kresnik, CTPatriot

          you apparently didn't read:

          (1)You told protesters to forget the polls. (2)You asked what change was good change? (3)You told them they would be marginalized.

          * * *
          I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization
          * * *
          "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy."

          by Angie in WA State on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:24:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I got that, but I don't see how those three (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            things were things I got wrong.

            A warning about the relevance of polls about an undefined position remains relevant. And it wasn't something I think can be argued that I got "wrong." I addressed this in my response above.

            Nor is a question about what change was good change. I don't understand how a question itself can even be wrong. I still have that question. How are the lives of everyday people improving from OWS activities? I still think that's a very relevant question, that I have not received a satisfactory answer to. But the question itself isn't wrong. That just doesn't make sense.

            As for being marginalized, I think that's debatable. I don't think the powers that be are really taking OWS seriously. And I certainly don't see a lot of support from the powers that be to enact concrete changes proposed by OWS groups. In my view, that's kinda being marginalized. I think back to the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle. Big protests, but the WTO just kinda continued on... That's what I think the fate of OWS will ultimately be.

            And again, I feel the need to clarify that I have a lot of similar goals as those of you participating in OWS protests; it is just that I don't think this "occupation" tactic will be successful at achieving those goals and may be counter-productive to achieving those goals.

            The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

            by atheistben on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 11:52:22 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Polls of support don't matter to those we elect, (5+ / 0-)

          either. They didn't matter when the majority supported a public option for healthcare, supported withdrawal from both Afghanistan and Iraq, supported NO CUTS to social security or medicare and supported taxing the wealthiest 1%. None of it matters when our elected officials are, themselves, either part of or bought off by, the wealthiest in this country.

          Obama said to us, 'the "fat cats" won't donate to me, I need all your small donations'. And we responded overwhelmingly with millions of dollars, many from people who could scarcely afford $5 bucks. And for what? More tax cuts for the richest people in the country? $4 million more in gift tax exemptions to ensure the painless transfer of wealth for the 1%? Weak financial regulation that will not stop TBTF and a healthcare bill that actually leaves more people uninsured?

          We've seen what's behind the curtain. It won't work anymore.

        •  This is an extremely short-sighted view (7+ / 0-)

          the conversation changes slowly, over time.  It starts with a small segment of the people and than spreads until the politicians can't ignore it.   Changing the conversation may not pay dividends in 2012, but it will have lasting effect in 2014, 2016 and beyond.

          Its like going to a civil rights or women's right protestors in the 50s and saying "what has all your bitching accomplished?"  Wait a few years, you will see.  Ideas like OWS have been coalescing for years, but they finally had a breakthrough in the public consciousness 2 months ago.  Would you have gone to Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell in the 70s said "all this Christian right stuff will never fly.  What have you accomplished in the past 2 months?"  You need to take a more long term view.  (Or don't.  It seems like your mind is already made up.)

          •  Well, (0+ / 0-)
            the conversation changes slowly, over time

            Or it doesn't. The only thing for certain is that the underlying reality isn't changing at all right now.

            Remember the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle? They sure did change the conversation... ... ...or oh yeah, they didn't really. And the WTO just keeps on doing its thing. Not everything has a lasting positive impact despite failed short-term action. Sometimes, it was just pissing in the wind.

            The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

            by atheistben on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 02:58:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Impatience and passivity (0+ / 0-)

          are what I read in this comment.

          You expect OWS, in two months, to effect sweeping change, to a system that has been drifting steadily in the wrong direction for 30 years. Otherwise you deem it a failure.

          You expect elected or appointed officials, whose sense of obligation to the voters becomes ever more tenuous as their survival becomes ever more dependent on money, to make wise decisions on your behalf.

          I would submit that they need to hear from us, and loudly.

          "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

          by sidnora on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 03:55:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  As opposed to the complete lack (5+ / 0-)

      of confirmation of the opposite?  Is there any confirmation that we have the ability to make the necessary economic and political changes through traditional methods?  I haven't seen any, and if you have some confirmation for your belief I'd love to see it.

      There revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:35:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm talking about the psychological (0+ / 0-)

        confirmation bias regarding why people on this website will like this diary. a tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true.

        The information in this diary confirms the preconceptions and hypotheses of people on this site regarding OWS, so people will like it. Everybody loves it when someone new joins their cause. It makes them feel justified in holding the position they do, despite that that has no bearing on whether or not the position is true.

        I was actually making no reference to the merits of OWS with that statement.

        The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

        by atheistben on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 10:57:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I raise you psychological projection (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CTPatriot, amsterdam, elwior, AoT

          when your own confirmation bias clearly ignores any and all success of the movement to date 1) in terms of changing the political dialogue 2) the rapid growth in the movement 3) resilience in the face of vigorous push-back from opponents of the moment 4) and the growing legitimacy of the ideals of the movement among citizens nd voters 5) the extant organizational and functional state of the movement.

          Instead you appear to have indulged in rank selection bias that self-validates your view of the movement as wholly dysfunctional and ineffective - one which is having a very difficult time conforming to reality. Now you've accused others of the selection bias that you, yourself are indulging in.

          'Physician, heal thyself.'

          •  I didn't know those were your goals (0+ / 0-)

            1. change the political dialogue
            2. grow the movement
            3. be resilient in the face of opposition
            4. grow legitimacy of the movements' ideals
            5. the extant organizational/functional state of the movement

            Really? That's what this is all about? And here all this time, I thought you were trying to improve the lives of the lower 99% by stopping some great conspiracy perpetrated by the top 1% that has funnelled money away from the 99% and to themselves.

            I didn't know it was just about standing back up after you get a billy club to the face. All of the stuff you listed is just internal shit.


            I've been asking this for months, and every time I do, I get shit about just not understanding it. Or it's a new democracy. Or down with capitalism. Or regulate capitalism. Or tax the rich. Or eat the rich. Or don't tear down my tent. Or end the wars. Or legalize pot. Or banks are bad....

            OWS isn't going to be able to suceed at my goal listed above because they don't have focus, direction, or enough intelligence to come to the realization that they actually need a fucking action plan that has that as the end result. You guys act like the goddamned underpants gnomes, only steps 2 and 3 are missing:

            Step 1: Protest
            Step 2: ???
            Step 3: Something about money getting spread around more???

            The obvious answers are wrong. That's why we aren't doing them already.

            by atheistben on Wed Nov 16, 2011 at 03:12:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  addressing your concerns (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              1. change the political dialogue

              political dialogue has changed. People are even talking goddamned underpants gnomes now. I myself don't think goddamned underpants gnomes are to blame for the dire situation our country is in, but apparently it's a starting point for you so I'll hear you out on this one.

              2. grow the movement

              personally I haven't heard before that goddamned underpants gnomes had joined any of the occupations, but I wouldn't be surprised given the growing inequality, the corruption in our system and the increased awareness of OWS that has resulted from the good work being done by these courageous young patriots.

              3. be resilient in the face of opposition

              this is always good advice, atheistben. I'm sure your goddamned underpants gnomes would agree.

              4. grow legitimacy of the movements' ideals

              this has not been hard in general because most people just get it. They don't have to look any farther than their own extended family to see the erosion in opportunity for the middle class. They are painfully aware that our government has become so corrupted and dysfunctional that they have lost faith that anyone in government cares and thus it's only going to get worse. Then again, not everyone can put it all together. There are some people doing very well off under the current system and they don't want anything changed.  

              5. the extant organizational/functional state of the movement

              the US government has had 200+ years to learn how to organize into an effective functional system responsive to the needs of the citizens. The occupy movement has had 60 days. That's less time than a college student has to work on a term paper. And during that time they've had  to deal with all sorts of unnecessary crises thrust on them night after night.

              Action Plan:

              as far as an action plan, this movement is inherently grassroots which means you and your goddamned underpants gnomes can plan, and implement your own actions.

              A piece of advice on this- take into account it's starting to get colder out there as we move into winter. It might be advantageous to getting some ski pants for your goddamned underpants gnomes if your plan involves spending time outside in tents or marches.

              hope this helps.

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