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View Diary: "If you do the crime, pay the time" A Pro-life View of Abortion (293 comments)

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  •  Why does pro-life mean (24+ / 0-)

    anti- abortion?

    I'm pro-choice, meaning I think every woman has the right to choose for herself what to do when she becomes pregnant.

    Personally, I am pro-life, meaning that I don't think I could ever have an abortion myself.   And I am grateful I never had to 'choose'.

    Personal beliefs should not be forced upon the population.

    Growing old is inevitable...Growing up is purely optional

    by grannycarol on Thu Feb 23, 2012 at 12:08:42 PM PST

    •  And that's the primary difference between (23+ / 0-)

      authoritarians and egalitarians. Prohibition and imposition are the very heart of the authoritarian philosophy.

      "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

      by Greyhound on Thu Feb 23, 2012 at 12:14:58 PM PST

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    •  because we lost the naming/framing battle (13+ / 0-)

      It was marketing, really.  Our side dropped the ball on that one, many years ago.  Issue should have always been framed as pro-choice, anti-choice.

      •  I Disagree (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, Mindful Nature, Ophelia, Matt Z

        Ricki Solinger and others have argued convincingly that one of the worst "branding" decisions that the reproductive rights movement ever made was to cast the abortion question in the consumerist language of "choice."  

        You should check out her work.

        If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

        by shanikka on Thu Feb 23, 2012 at 06:16:53 PM PST

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        •  It might have been the nomenclature (0+ / 0-)

          but I tend to think it was more a lack of effort on our part. Although, back then, framing an issue the way we understand it now didn't get a lot of focus.  We were kind of blindsided by the term "pro-life" taking hold.

          •  It's Not Nomenclature (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ms Citizen

            It's the thinking behind the idea of "choice" when it comes to reproductive rights that's the problem.  Again, I highly recommend reading the work she has done.  As a pro-choice social historian, she's done a lot of research on this.

            If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

            by shanikka on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 06:53:08 AM PST

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        •  I don't think the framing matters a damn (0+ / 0-)

          It's an emotionally charged issues. Calling people Pro-abortion or anti-choice, depending upon your view isn't goign to change many mings.

          •  It's not "Framing" (0+ / 0-)

            Framing is the manipulation of language to generate psychological reaction/response.  It is about how we THINK about the question of reproductive rights.

            If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

            by shanikka on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 06:53:40 AM PST

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            •  So how should we think about the issue? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dave in Northridge

              Simply telling me to go read somebody's work isn't helping here.  

              Framing the way Frank Luntz does it is manipulation because it is based in dishonesty and obfuscation.  But framing isn't always inherently manipulative - words are powerful things.

              •  Oh yes it is (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                darlalalala

                You are ascribing a value judgment to the word "manipulation", i.e. it's manipulative when our political enemy purposefully chooses language because of its psychological impact, but not when our side does it.

                I'm not willing to play games like that.  Framing is what it is, and it is manipulative, no matter the worth of the cause for which it is being utilized.  I don't think that any of the proponents of the theory of framing would say differently.

                BTW I referred you to the work of others because they cannot be reduced to a soundbite.  A person who really wants to understand why in the hell 4 decades after Roe and 4 1/2 decades after Griswold we are still having the fight we are having will take the time.

                If you don't stand for something, you will go for anything. Visit Maat's Feather

                by shanikka on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 08:18:35 AM PST

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      •  the right frame (7+ / 0-)

        pro-government-interference vs pro-privacy

        The issue is about whether the government has the right to determine which medical risk a person will face. It should be framed in a way that has nothing to do with the procedure itself, rather what power the government should have over its citizens' medical choices.

        We did lose the framing battle, and we continue to lose it until we ourselves understand the fundamental point of the Roe v Wade decision, and that is the role of government in our medical choices.
         

        "Every Pootie is a masterpiece." - Da Vinci

        by mdsiamese on Thu Feb 23, 2012 at 08:35:30 PM PST

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      •  What? Liberals lost... (8+ / 0-)

        ...a naming/framing battle? I'm shocked, shocked to hear this!

      •  No, it's not what it's called (0+ / 0-)

        it's the fact that this was a decision made by unelected judges pushing the envelope judge-made law...even if you agree with the result of Roe v. Wade, the Constitutional justification it was based on could only be called a stretch. Unlike the civil rights decisions, which forced the federal and state governments to live up to the guarantees of equal rights embodied in the Reconstruction Amendments, Roe v. Wade created a new right...almost out of thin air.

        The sudden change created an unprecedented backlash. At one and the same time it was a great victory and a severe blow to the women's movement.

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 09:01:19 AM PST

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        •  There IS a Ninth Amendment in the Bill of Rights (3+ / 0-)

          and it DOES say exactly this:

          The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
          That's not exactly "thin air".

          Somewhere along the way - probably quite early on - we lost sight of what it quite plainly said, and have spent two centuries denying, obfuscating and ignoring it.

          If it's
          Not your body,
          Then it's
          Not your choice
          And it's
          None of your damn business!

          by TheOtherMaven on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 09:58:31 AM PST

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    •  Because many of them believe it is about life (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      YoungArizonaLiberal, Pozzo

      They think abortion is murder.   Period.

      It is a reasonable frame to their point of view.

      Those that dislike abortions for other reasons aren't going to kick about a label that's so positive sounding.

      •  A lot of their views are based on women who choose (9+ / 0-)

        to have sex -- that if they choose the sex, they should be punished. And if they become pregnant when they don't want to, having the baby is their punishment.

        (Please understand, I don't believe this. I'm saying, some people do.)

        Sex is a sin, pregnancy and being forced to carry to term is the punishment.

        Never mind that a child should never be anyone's punishment. That doesn't factor into the equation.

        •  While that may factor into some (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          darlalalala

          people's views, I really think we do ourselves a disservice by espousing this.

          The issue is murder. If I believe abortion is murdering a baby, and come to tell me that what I really want to do is punish women, I'm going to think you're nuts.

          Even if it is true.

          It's not 11th dimensional chess; it's just chess. And he's KICKING YOUR ASS.

          by pneuma on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 07:10:08 AM PST

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          •  Remember, much of the religious right has (0+ / 0-)

            no problem with the death penalty. So I'd argue it's not a real problem with murder.

            And they're all really into the whole judgement/punishment thing. They really, really want people to be judged and punished for their sins.

            If you want to really piss off a so-called religious person, tell them you don't believe there is a hell. They freak completely. They're counting on all of us sinners to burn in hell.

            So the forced-to-have-the-baby thing is their version of judgement and punishment for the sin of daring to have sex.

            •  You're wrong (0+ / 0-)

              Death penalty is given to murders. Eye for an eye. That's god's justice. Nothing inconsistent about it.

              Abortion is murder of an innocent life. Totally different.

              If I'm pro-life, I see this line of argument as deflection. The issue is murder, not sex.

              It's not 11th dimensional chess; it's just chess. And he's KICKING YOUR ASS.

              by pneuma on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 08:04:49 AM PST

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      •  They are full of shit. They don't believe that. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sngmama, zedaker, Matt Z

        They don't believe women should be able to claim an embryo as a dependent for tax purposes. They have never attended a funeral for an embryo lost to spontaneous miscarriage. They do not write the names of family members lost to miscarriage in the family Bible with other births and deaths. They do not purchase sympathy cards for family members who experience miscarriage consoling them on the loss of a child.

        They only manifest this flaming, passionate belief in the personhood of an embryo when a woman is making the decision whether to continue to gestate one. Smells like bullshit.

        •  Dont underestimate them (3+ / 0-)

          There are true believers and they are the source of the power for the rest, who use them.   They believe abortion is murder just as passionately as they believe in everything else their church tells them.

          If you assume they're all as cynical as the people who write the laws, you are blinding yourself to their real strength.

          This sort of thing is why it is so hard to change the minds of the core base, unless something happens to them or someone they love.  (and even then, the more common response is to shun the loved one, rather than change their mind)

          •  We'll never change their minds (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Matt Z

            Our core differences are a matter of faith; one that they have, and we don't.

            We need to be looking for ways to live with each other, because this is an argument no one can win. Rest assured that the other side is not.

            It's not 11th dimensional chess; it's just chess. And he's KICKING YOUR ASS.

            by pneuma on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 07:12:45 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The only way is to MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              YoungArizonaLiberal

              YOU (generic you) live YOUR life YOUR way, and let me live mine my way.

              "Thou shalt mind thine own business" must have been on the third tablet that Moses dropped. (Mel Brooks in-joke.)

              If it's
              Not your body,
              Then it's
              Not your choice
              And it's
              None of your damn business!

              by TheOtherMaven on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 10:02:18 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Pro-life vs. Pro-choice (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ms Citizen, kait

      Grannycarol: You and I think very similarly on this. We are pro-choice however because we believe that every woman has the right to make this choice with every pregnancy. There are very few circumstances in which I personally would choose an abortion, but I don't feel I have the right to make that decision for anyone else nor judge anyone else for their choices.

      Those who claim the "pro-life" title, think they have the right to make the choice for every other person's pregnancy, and that choice is no abortion, and possibly no birth control. Some just want to control other people, some think it's 'murder' and that if they don't stop it they're as 'guilty' as the people who have the abortion are, some think they're somehow avoiding a 'punishment' they weren't able to avoid themselves. I've talked to all three groups in the past.

      "Madness! Total and complete madness! This never would've happened if the humans hadn't started fighting one another!" Londo Mollari

      by FloridaSNMOM on Fri Feb 24, 2012 at 05:47:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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