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View Diary: I'm so angry, I'm crying; I'm so sad, I want to scream. (185 comments)

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  •  Kids aren't born mean. (15+ / 0-)

    I totally disagree.  We witnessed kids who were mean from the time they could walk and talk.  Often with siblings who were the opposite, so you couldn't easily blame the parents.  I actually believe some kids ARE born mean, and my heart goes out to the parents who have to raise them.

    •  Shit happens (15+ / 0-)

      No doubt there's a small % of kids who were rolled the genetic dice and came up with snake eyes for empathy but I don't think that that's true for the majority of bullies.

      Adults hold the control.

      Sure, some people are born psychopaths, but that doesn't explain why we have such a huge problem with bullying in our schools.

      look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

      by FishOutofWater on Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 08:35:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Abuse has effects very early on, and (7+ / 0-)

      siblings may react to an abusive home differently. I think evil behavior comes from nurture rather than nature with only with rare exceptions. Abusive behavior probably comes from a combination of nature and nurture- hence siblings who react differently- but I just don't believe many people are born evil. In my 38 years, I haven't seen it happen, the mean apple falling far from a nice tree.

      Also, what you're not including in the mix is that siblings, unless they are twins, are in different developmental stages. It would be unlikely for any siblings to behave the same as children, if only because they're at different ages.

      •  That's a comforting thought, (5+ / 0-)

        in that it gives us the notion that we are capable of fixing things, even though we may not be.  The idea that nuture is the answer went out decades ago as our understanding of genetics has improved, as well as our understanding of genetics X environment interactions has improved.

        I have seen children start out mean when they are very young and grow up to be mean, with no evidence of abuse in the family and siblings thriving.  It is devastating for parents of such a child to be told they must be responsible.  They must have been abusive or this wouldn't have happened.

        At the time our children were born medical wisdom said autism was caused by abuse, especially maternal abuse.  Put a friend of ours in the hospital, she was so distraught.  That was where the abuse came in--how she was treated, not how she treated her child.

    •  they were wrecked in babyhood! (1+ / 0-)
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      any baby that does not feel totally safe and secure and loved or as near to that will be damaged. Bad Infant care theories are bad enough but add uncaring or abusive parents will create monsters or ruined kids pretty quickly. but there is still a window to save most but that is mostly just luck. If there is no love and attention to them by age 7 and definitely by puberty then they are set to be that way for life.

      The more horribly they act early on the more likely they had an extremely bad start and they way they behave is because underneath all the shit they are strong and they way they are makes sense to them just as basic SURVIVAL... their emergency back-up programming kicks in and that is bad for those around them.

      Yes some kids are born naturally violent or psychopathic tendencies.. probably not genetic though there must be some inborn personality traits that help... but those are components of behavior that still need more things like a developmental glitch or they have a selective virus that damages a key area of their brain. repeated impacts to the center of the forehead in early life (even from just falling face down on hard floors repeatedly when learning to walk) can change the ability to judge situations and acts. And again good parenting, even the very best will have a hard time with kids unlucky to be afflicted with these things. Clueless or indifferent parents let alone really vile parents who have an already damaged child will make them even worse.

      For a social animal like us the lessons learned as an infant will be the most powerful of all. Pain and fear and loneliness, hunger and lack of love will make a monster or diminished person more surely than anything else.

      Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

      by IreGyre on Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 01:09:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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