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View Diary: I Apologize, Profoundly. Update, a Thank You (235 comments)

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  •  But you don't know the context, so you're assuming (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    it was innocuous. That's part of the problem, too -- assuming that the people we identify as being on "our side" are essentially goodhearted and "cant possibly mean it."

    When it comes to racism -- or any "ism," really -- that's a dangerous assumption to make.

    Calling out our "friends" is just as important as calling out our "coworkers."

    And while I'm sorry for any nastiness aimed in your direction, it doesn't mean that others should get a free pass.

    •  Look (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PinHole, Mindful Nature, gramofsam1

      Maybe I don't understand the context of the remark. It did not seem like a blanket condemnation to me. But I could very well be wrong.

      Bottom line-Liberal Granny is one of my favorite Kossacks because of all the work she does on womens issues, and I'm glad to see her back. I did not mean to start an argument over the fairness of her banning.

      Please support TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3) for victims and survivors of sexual abuse and exploitation. Also, too, I haz a blog

      by SwedishJewfish on Tue May 22, 2012 at 10:52:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Accusations that progressives (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BradyB, Mindful Nature

        are motivated by racism rather than genuine policy disagreements have been the single most divisive thing among democrats in the last three years and are very likely losing votes.  If you don't understand why kos banned LG and how such statements are dickish and conger-productive (kos's words) you and others need to do a lot of reflecting.

      •  I'm going to belabor a point, because I think (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SwedishJewfish, TiaRachel

        that this thread, while in part a dialogue between me and you, is also a stand-in for conversations as a whole on this site.


        I'm not condemning or accusing you. I'm responding because I believe that having a dialogue like this is important because there are many issues at play, and ones that well meaning folks need to have.

        1. In some part, you may feel like your comment is strictly meant to be taken by all readers as a conversation solely between you and the OP. But... it's not. Everything you say is visible to others. If you really want to have a conversation where your words will not be examined/cause a reaction, then the comment feature may not be the way to do it. A private message might be the way to go, particularly given the topic. Because people like me will read it and have a reaction.

        And once that reaction has been had, asking people to NOT see the comment as part of the larger conversation... well, the cat's out of the bag and it's not going back in.

        2. It's great that the OP does good work, in whatever area, and particularly in an area that's meaningful to you. But... But being a good feminist doesn't mean you get a free pass in other areas.

        3. I know you know this: "people not seeing the problem" or "not thinking it's a big deal" is very much PART of the problem.

        4.  I'm not arguing over the fairness, or not, of her banning. I'm arguing specifically with the assumption that waving away accusations of racism among progressive allies without knowing the details is understandable/okay.

        •  OK, I can understand that (0+ / 0-)

          I think these discussions are important, and you have been very respectful about it, so I will break my rule about not engaging in these debates here for just a moment.

          I think that there is an undercurrent of racism in some of the criticisms of President Obama. I am NOT saying that all critics are racists, or even most. I think there is racism on both sides, frankly (on the rox side, there is a bit of that "soft bigotry of low expectations" going on at times) See Shanikka's comment downthread-I'm 100% in agreement with her. It's part of our conditioning. And I do NOT think that it should be out of lines to talk about.

          I think that banning LG based on that one comment is unfortunate, because it has the effect of shutting down debate around an important issue that we should be able to talk about rationally. I can understand why people were offended by it-but I also don't see why that couldnt have spurred a discussion instead of a banning.

          And for the record, I would feel the same way if it was a critic who got banned.

          Please support TREE Climbers, our 501(c)(3) for victims and survivors of sexual abuse and exploitation. Also, too, I haz a blog

          by SwedishJewfish on Tue May 22, 2012 at 03:11:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Racism exists. I don't deny it. (0+ / 0-)

            I'm a white feminist and have seen firsthand how the "people not seeing it as a problem" (in intersections between feminism and racism) is a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM.

            But the fact remains that blanket accusations are offensive, particularly when there are legitimate reasons to disagree with Obama and his policies.

            And if the first response to ANY criticism of Obama is a secret belief that the other party is a racist, well... no dialogue is possible.

            And, IMO, boiling down this disagreement to "rox/sux" minimizes serious issues.

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