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View Diary: New Information Emerges on Pope John Paul II (308 comments)

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  •  read, CorinaR and read different sources.... (15+ / 0-)

    a lot of evidence is coming to light.

    The Vatican Banking Scandal is fact, not circumstantial.  And there are others things that are now being confirmed as fact.

    It wouldn't be as important to inform ourselves about this, if the current Vat was not meddling in our politics in a most regressive way.  But they are, so we must inform ourselves to protect ourselves so that we know with whom we are dealing.

    I belong to the “US” of America, not the “ME,$,ME,$,ME,$,ME,$” of America!

    by SeaTurtle on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:20:32 AM PDT

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    •  Yes, the Vatican is trying to control US politics (14+ / 0-)

      through the pope's control of the U.S. episcopate. That was the reason the neocons groomed and got Wojtyla elected just as they did Ronald Reagan in addition to protecting their "offshore" financial institution.

      •  Let me see if i have this straight (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        puzzled, AoT

        The vatican is attempting to control US politics, but US political operatives got the Pope elected. So it's US political operatives controlling the vatican, in order to protect offshore financial institutions. Who is controlling who?

        •  Thanks for pointing out my lack of clarity (7+ / 0-)

          The Religious Right was conceived and executed by the neocons. Needing the organizational strength and the global financial network only the Catholic Church could provide, they engineered the placement of both John Paul II and Reagan in leadership positions. The Vatican is an absoute monarchy and in sole control of all appointments and promotions of hierarchs. So once they had "their man" in there, through their financial support and control of the media, they were able to keep JPII in line (up until Wojtyla was dying and he denounced the invasion of Iraq.)

          So ultimately, since they have the money, the plutocrats control the Vatican, but the Vatican willingly is complicit since it's focus is maintaining it's own wealth and power through support of the plutocrats' political agenda.

          Think of the Holy Roman Empire or the ancien regimes. The prelates urged the people to docile acceptance of tyrants and in return, the monarch supported the Church and feigned obsequiousness to the bishops.

          I apologize for not being clearer and hope this helps.

           

    •  As a non Roman Catholic and a little cog (9+ / 0-)

      there is not much that I can do personally except chip away at those that call JPII a saint and think that he was progressive compared to the the present pope ... and I do that. I also work for progressive politics and to keep religion out of our government.

      I am not a JPII fan by any means but I don't really keep up with all the new revelations. If these things prove to be true and the fast track canonizaton has already happened, what can be done?  How do you change a hand picked and densely packed curia ... or maybe one will take his theology seriously and try to change things ... but that idd not work well for JPI, did it?

      "Life without liberty is like a body without spirit. Liberty without thought is like a disturbed spirit." Kahlil Gibran, 'The Vision'

      by CorinaR on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:31:02 AM PDT

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      •  The reason I wrote this and others is to discredit (14+ / 0-)

        the Catholic Church to the point that it will lose its ability to influence U.S. politics. Certainly having a Religious Right icon taken down a notch or two. So, thanks CorinaR, if we all chip away eventually the fact that the current hierarchy of the Church are amoral, corrupt men will limit their influence in this country.

        •  There needs to be an alternative (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis, mashed potatoes, Jim P

          Many Catholics want to keep their faith without the hierarchy. We've investigated the "American Catholic Church" and others. If there were a viable alternative, there would be even more drop off.

          •  There's been a few more that I know of (6+ / 0-)

            There's the Ecumenical Catholic Church and the parishes under the auspices of the Roman Catholic Women Priests. There's the Old Catholic Church which split with Rome in the 19th century over papal infallibility and others and probably more that I don't know of.

            Of course there's always Episcopal, Lutheran and Orthodox churchs which have a liturgy similar to the Mass.

          •  This was done during the Reformation. Why not now? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SeaTurtle, 3goldens

            A clergy with the ability to marry would attract an entirely new cohort of priests who wish to minister to people, rather than the elderly crew of aging priests who's first reaction is to quash independent thought or suppression of scandal.  It would bring a breath of fresh air to an organization having a leadership from within a shrinking talent pool and the results are showing.  An increasingly foreign born clergy is becoming less relevant to American Catholics who appear to be voting with their feet.  

            And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

            by MrJersey on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:22:55 AM PDT

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            •  The only ones who can do this (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, SeaTurtle

              are the ones in the pews and the ones in the pulpits ... outsiders can only support, not instigate.

              Can you live with excommunication and shunning? I've seen it work and what it does to people ... it takes lots of faith and uncommon guts to live with it and stay in the same theological community.

              "Life without liberty is like a body without spirit. Liberty without thought is like a disturbed spirit." Kahlil Gibran, 'The Vision'

              by CorinaR on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 09:51:03 AM PDT

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              •  Excommunication if you accept it (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CorinaR, SeaTurtle

                That's actual doctrine.
                Two people in my section of the church walked out during the anti-mandate sermon Sunday. There were probably half the normal attendees and the report in the bulletin had the collection down a quarter from last year this time.

                •  Send copies of your donation checks (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SeaTurtle

                  made out to organizations / political groups you support in lieu of donations to the church. Let them know specifically how you feel in the way that really hurts.

                  "You can die for Freedom, you just can't exercise it"

                  by shmuelman on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 12:33:06 PM PDT

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        •  Betty (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP, AoT, KenBee

          have you read the book Constantine's Sword? It is a historical documentation of the treatment of Jews within Roman Catholicism prior to the Holocaust. It completely avoids Godwin's law by concentrating solely on Roman Catholic church activities and generally avoids Nazi Germany. The idea is that even before th Holocaust Christian Europe was guilty of the most horrendous crimes against Jews people as a whole. And that antisemitism is not unique to Nazis.

          •  Yes, I've read Constantine's Sword (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KenBee

            I don't know what "Godwin's law" is but I think the issue of Nazi Germany and antisemitism has already been covered at length by others and, perhaps, that's why it wasn't covered. But "Constine's Sword" certainly is a horrendous account of the history of antisemitism in Europe up until that time.

            •  'Godwin's law' wiki here (0+ / 0-)

              here

              a good read, to me the core message is avoid it if you want to communicate, or expect it as the case may be...

              Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.[5]
              and..
              While falling afoul of Godwin's law tends to cause the individual making the comparison to lose their argument or credibility, Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.[10] Similar criticisms of the "law" (or "at least the distorted version which purports to prohibit all comparisons to German crimes") have been made by Glenn Greenwald.[11] Some have suggested a counter axiom where a fallacious invoking of Godwin's Law results in the person automatically losing the debate.[12]
              and it's use as a tool for threadjacking is unparallelled.

              the end.

              From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!...Langston Hughes

              by KenBee on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 11:51:56 PM PDT

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