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View Diary: ALEPPO: Step outside the Matrix and witness the Horror (63 comments)

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  •  You miss the hole. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cynical Copper

    How, exactly, is empowering an army of Syrian Sunnis, backed up by al Qaeda and Salafis, supposed to produce a government that won't make trouble for Israel?  What you've got there is a collection of pretty hard-core anti-Zionists.

    It's not the relative friendliness of the Saudi regime towards Israel that's the problem here.  It's the notion that these actions by the Saudi regime could, in any plausible world, be seen as producing a pro-Israel government.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 06:56:36 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  LOL (5+ / 0-)

      Just ask Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states how they've been doing it for decades. Money. We did the same thing in Egypt for years - buying peace for Israel with money to the military. Look at the wikileaks of meeting in Lebanon during the 2006 war where Sunni Muslims like Siniora and Hariri welcomed Israeli bombing of their own country in the hope it would destroy Hezbollah.

      The Saudis have promoted the idea that the Shiites and Alawites are greater heretics/enemies than Israelis and Americans. The Saudis have the arrogance to think that their money can buy them what they want and if these people start doing what they don't like they'll shut off the flow of money. And they will make sure that during the elections, there will be enough money flowing to the candidates that they prefer.

      •  It's like people put blinders on (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice, chipmo, Shawn Russell

        and ignore our history with Saudi, and specifically Prince Bandar

        I'm sure CNN will do a long segment on all the fall out the U.S. has encountered for following this stupid policy.

        And if that isn't enough, we have the French leading us down the path as well. Hopefully this adventure will turn out better than Vietnam...(Just one more B-52 bombing run, and they will finally love us!)

        •  Perhaps it's just my blinders, but can YOU explain (0+ / 0-)

          how supporting al Qaeda and Salafis is supposed to produce a pro-Israel government?

          You might have to use small words, because I'm so very blinded, but even the invocation of Prince Bandar and the terrible, awful history of his relationship with Republican Presidents fails to answer that question.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 07:37:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You do realize (3+ / 0-)

            No one ever said it would be pro-Israel.

            It just wouldn't give a damn. Like the Sunni's in Lebanon don't give a damn that their nation is overflown by Israel on a near daily basis.

            It's one thing to say rhetoric about Israel. It's another to actually do something on the ground....like buy a SAM to keep the Israeli's from flying over the country.....

            Ever since Bashar called many of the Sunni leaders half-men in 2006 while Arabs were getting killed, Bashar has been on their target list. Not for standing up for Arabs, but because he stood up against Israel. Rich Saudi's and GCC state guys like to go to Western capitals and be treated like royality. They can't do that if they have stand for something. Instead, they pay off corrupt politicians (like Hariri paid off Chirac) and continue to be called 'moderate' as long as they never do anything against Israel.

            Saudi security forces have opened fire on Shia protesters in the Qatif district of Eastern Province, wounding several of them as hundreds marched to demand the release of detainees, witnesses said.

            Live rounds fired by anti-riot police injured a number of protesters who took to the streets in the early hours on Friday, the witnesses said, without specifying a figure.

            The interior ministry said security forces dealt with "rioters who burned tyres" in parts of Qatif, arresting several people, including Mohammed al-Shakhuri, whose name was on a list of 23 wanted people.

            Al Jazeera

            This just happened. No one in the Western media or corrupt politicians, or the oil money appointed UN will condemn it.

            •  Oh, really? Here you go: (0+ / 0-)

              Here's the comment I was replying to:

              LOL (5+ / 0-)
              Just ask Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states how they've been doing it for decades. Money. We did the same thing in Egypt for years - buying peace for Israel with money to the military. Look at the wikileaks of meeting in Lebanon during the 2006 war where Sunni Muslims like Siniora and Hariri welcomed Israeli bombing of their own country
              It's one thing to say rhetoric about Israel. It's another to actually do something on the ground....like buy a SAM to keep the Israeli's from flying over the country...
              And you're of the opinion that an al Qaeda/Salafi-led government would engage in rhetoric, and not actually "do something on the ground."

              That's very special.

              The irrelevant, off-top last 2/3 of your comment, I'm not going to reply to, because I see to reason to let you change the subject.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:46:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  btw (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mickT, chipmo

          just wanted to acknowledge that you saw a lot of this stuff going down a lot earlier than me and I remember negating a lot of the things you said. However, events have proved me wrong and you right and I wanted to publicly acknowledge that.

      •  Forced laughter and saying "money" is no answer. (0+ / 0-)

        Yes, no kidding the Saudis have used their money to advance their foreign policy.

        I'm still waiting for an explanation of how this movement, supposedly spearheaded by al Qaeda and Salafis, is supposed to be pro-Israel.  You know how Saudi Arabia has used its money to help support movements that are relatively friendly towards Israel?  By supporting people who resist the al Qaeda/Salafi line, such as Hariri.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 07:33:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mickT, chipmo

          The Future Movement/March 14, of which Hariri is the head, have Salafis in their grouping as well as al-Qaeda types. I think you need to go brush up on your knowledge of the region.

          •  They why did al Qaeda kill him? (0+ / 0-)

            In point of fact, it is very likely that those "al Qaeda types" killed Hariri themselves.

            You can keep posturing as if your partisan preferences are actually an indication that you have a great deal of knowledge, but putting a front like you do isn't actually goingto fool anyone with any sort of understanding about the region.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:37:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm talking about Saad Hariri who is the head (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Claudius Bombarnac

              of March 14, a grouping that did not come about until after his father Rafiq was assassinated. Saad Hariri himself still believes that the Syrians were behind the killing of his father yet he still went to Syria when the Saudi-Syrian rapprochement occurred a few years back. And if you think someone can't be in coalition with people one was against before, then you don't know anything about Lebanese politics. Walid Jumblatt also believed his father Kamal was killed by Syria yet still paid obeisance to them at the appropriate moments. General Michel Aoun fought the Syrians 20 years ago yet is now part of a coalition in Lebanon with Hezbollah that is called pro-Syrian. Rafiq Hariri was also allied with Syria.

              As for your past paragraph, look in the mirror.

          •  You know, you could have made a plausible argument (0+ / 0-)

            You could have put together a perfectly respectable description of the Sunni vs. Shia implications of this war, and the interests of the regional players.

            But your need to shoehorn in dramatic language about Skeery Al Qaeda Mooslems, and then claim that Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and the United States - three countries currently at war with or under attack by al Qaeda - were supporting al Qaeda is just a bridge too far.  And then, to characterize this support for an (allegedly) al Qaeda-led movement as being done for the benefit of Israel, that's just a whole row of bridges too far.

            But, ooh boy, when you're trying to propagandize against a Muslim movement to an American audience, being able to invoke al Qaeda is just too good to pass up.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:55:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Hariri resists the al Qaeda/Salafi line? (3+ / 0-)

          Since when. Maybe while on morphine while getting treated for his broken leg from his skiing accident in France.

          But the coalition he built includes Salafists.

          Armed members of the Future Movement and hardline Islamists cut off a number of roads in the northern Lebanese province of Akkar on Friday in protest at the release of several military officers allegedly involved in the killing of an Islamist figure.
          •  The Sunni coalition in Lebanon is broad, yes. (0+ / 0-)

            Hardline Salafists, followers of a more inclusive, cosmopolitial, typically Lebanese viewpoint - there are different sorts of Sunnis in Lebanon, and the country's politics cause them to band together into a coalition.

            But Hariri himself represented the more liberal, pro-western end of that coalition.

            This is hardly a secret.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 08:41:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I wrote a couple of diaries on the last elections (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mickT

          in Lebanon. You might want to check them out to see who the players are in Lebanese politics and who is in what coalition.

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