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View Diary: Reality and the post-debate responses (263 comments)

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  •  I'm still astonished at the clear evidence (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Luhks, slinkerwink, ranger995, MikePhoenix

    that the first debate had a distinct and undeniable impact.  I honestly never thought before that anyone but die-hard political junkies would be noticing or caring about the debates.  

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 03:44:21 PM PST

    •  The reason is that there were millions of people (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MikePhoenix, blueoasis, bdop4, schnecke21

      who knew next to nothing about Mitt Romney before the first debate, and at that point that was their first look at Romney in action. The same thing happened in 04 with John Kerry.

    •  There was a big, big audience. (10+ / 0-)

      Bigger than any debate audience in 2008.

      Fact is, if you believe the polls, and after what we've just seen you have every reason to, the debate mattered. It didn't cost Obama the election, of course.

      Guess why? The RESPONSE from DEMOCRATS. That is what led to corrections and the corrections not only stopped Romney cold, but lifted President Obama and his supporters.

      This is kos' point. We are all better off living in a world of reality than mythmaking.

      •  Yes, we admitted and corrected in time (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brooklynbadboy, slinkerwink

        but dang there was quite a bit of correctin' to be done.  In an already fairly tight race, that hit was significant.  And I just never would have believed it, in advance. But when it happened I believed it, and yes that IS the difference right there.

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 03:56:30 PM PST

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      •  So you honestly think team Obama wouldn't have (4+ / 0-)

        made course corrections if people didn't meltdown?  Seriously they are not stupid people.  They had to have known it was not a good night.  There would have been the needed changes if people had reasoned criticism instead of what happened.  

        •  the hair-tearing was over-the-top (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          President Obama looked distracted.   he didn't however, lie out his ears and flop all over the stage like a flip-flop master.

          and while he stayed steady, if unanimated and dull and gave Mitt the stage to become yet another New Mitt, Mitt "winning" was only in the mind of the WWW group which then became the meme, echoing far and wide until it circled around on itself and then became... "reality."

          a debate is not a wrestling match.  people are actually a little tiny bit smarter than so many pundits thinks they are.

          "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

          by kj in missouri on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 04:30:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  in other words, (0+ / 0-)

          polls reflect how people are thinking.

          polls do not, in themselves, give a person a reason to vote for or against unless those people only vote on the basis of being on the winning or losing side of an election.

          "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

          by kj in missouri on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 04:33:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  What I read afterwards (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laconic Lib

          Is that there were "concerns" among his team that Obama wasn't taking the debate seriously. Apparently, no one had the guts to take him aside and tell him to get his head straight. I would have hoped either Biden or Kerry would have done it.

          So, no, I don't think anyone on the inside would have administered the shock treatment needed to fire him up. Conflict is not in his nature so a cattle prod was needed.

        •  You equate every negative response with meltdown. (5+ / 0-)

          Fact is, most of the folks here did not have a meltdown. Especially those on the FP. There was some pretty cut and dry "bad night" calls. One of our bunch pointed out how absurd it was for the President to say his position and Romney's position on Social Security were the same. That is objectively false as a casual perusal of both campaign websites proved. The campaign quickly had to come out and correct that.

          Were there people saying "oh no..thats it...were finished...its over" well yes their was. They were having a meltdown. But they were few and far between. I think most argued that this was not good, but fixable, and it shouldn't happen again. President Obama publicly agreed with this assessment.

          The folks who had the meltdown, in my view, were those arguing in several recommended dairies that there was nothing to see here, Obama won, and anybody saying otherwise didn't understand 11th dimensional chess.

          That's a view NOBODY agreed with. Especially not the Obama Campaign or Obama himself.

          Now who had the meltdown?

          •  :-) (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mahakali overdrive

            it comes back to the definition of "winning."  

            i'll push that "winning" is based on facts and policy, not the dance Mitt did.  and i had no problem echoing the idea that President Obama stayed honest, if dull, and let Mitt change his positions yet again because, guess what, that actually happened.

            but the Social Security comment burned, yes.

            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

            by kj in missouri on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 05:21:19 PM PST

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            •  The problem is we weren't the intended audience (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bdop4, kj in missouri

              for the debate ;)

              That was for the morons who hadn't yet decided how to vote. So there's no winning there on facts because they don't have a clue what the facts are or they'd have already been Obama voters.

              Thus said, I think it's all moot now. We won. Won won? We won! Something went right in the end. To me, the definition of winning is the part where we count the ballots and see who did, in fact, win.

              •  yes, we won! (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mahakali overdrive

                and i'm still doing the happy dance.   :-)

                occasionally i'll push to see if there is any interest here in becoming more than an echo of the echo chamber in the rank and file and i think the answer is clear... there are a few front pagers who fit that bill and some fantastic diaries on the side.  i know who writes in ways that challenge my thinking and i know who writes copy i could write.  ha.  

                i'll be happy dancing for quite awhile.  holding the Senate, picking up seats, all our women in that body, wow.  that will keep me cheering for a quite a long time.  President Obama winning a second term?   pinch me.   ;-)

                good to see you kaligirl.   {{{mahakali}}}

                "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                by kj in missouri on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 07:41:25 PM PST

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          •  No actually I don't. I think quite a few people (2+ / 0-)

            had reasoned responses but I also think many of those were drowned out  by the hair on fire responses of many, especially the pundits on MSNBC.

            I think that fact that people are STILL dwelling on it shows that the response to what was a bad night was OTT is many a corner.

            Say it was a bad night and move on.  

          •  The FP here kept it pretty collected IIRC (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kj in missouri

            It was really on the rec list, and in comments, much of which seemed driven on by teevee pundits with a vested interest in a close horse race or who were certainly out for blood one way or another. But I think the FP here generally remained level and I did appreciate that. I also saw the site deal unusually well with trolls who played screaming mimis. There was still some noise on this site, but this is a Democracy, and a messy one at that, so the concern was a bit much at times, the tone was a bit intense, but all's well that ends well, and in this case, we kicked motherfucking ass all the way to the polls, so I am quite pleased! Thus I offer you my rec on your comment. Also, I think the President did look to online reactions to gauge his performance, not because he's foolish but rather because he's intelligent; any intelligent person seeks audience feedback for any performance that they give.

            My singular contention is why are we talking about this instead of being like, "FUCK YES, WE WON" and in spite of a clunker of a debate. Or, "FUCK YES, DEBATE 2 and 3 WERE OUT OF THE PARK!" I guess it's a matter of perspective and priority and that I'm just missing something integral here? Because Hell if I'm not happy today! I'm very, very happy with our win.

            I'm also happy that we saw that degree of mendacity from the GOP because I think that's their albatross now to work off in the public eye. Rebuilding their "trust" with the electorate after the 98,000 lies of Mittens will take some time.

      •  Nailed it, BBB (0+ / 0-)

        At the time, people were just beginning to think about the race and the debate represented a starting point for a lot of voters.

        When Romney started reversing every single position he held in the primaries, and Obama said nothing, those positions became the TRUTH. And you know the media isn't going to call Romney out.

        The debate opponent has to do it right then and there, and in no uncertain terms.

        That's how Biden did it.

      •  maybe the whole yelling louder (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mahakali overdrive

        could be converted to speaking smarter.
        like Kos' diary on debate night.
        not like Chris and Ed on debate night.

        "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

        by kj in missouri on Fri Nov 09, 2012 at 05:48:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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