Skip to main content

View Diary: I know you think praying at government events is normal, but it's really not. (302 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  No it is not (5+ / 0-)

    Mormonism is not a "mental disorder".  No more so than any other religion

    I am shocked that people cannot see jut how odious that statement is.  Mind scans for members of a minority religious groups because you think their beliefs are strange?  Hinduism has so odd stories too.  Do Hindus nemind scans too?  How about Christian with the whole cannibalism and blood drinking beliefs?  Gave your ever read revelations?  tht is easily as bizarre.   Should we have mind scans for them too

    I have lost a shit ton of respect for all you who recced this.  I will NOT be taking your seriously next time you complain about racism or homophobia, because you all are just as eager.   Sorry, but there it is

    Unless you can find a way to justify special treatment and derogatory labeling for religious groups whose beliefs you don't share, I see no way around this language

    This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

    by Mindful Nature on Sat Nov 10, 2012 at 11:37:11 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I respect people's rights to believe what they (7+ / 0-)

      want, in their own ways.

      That includes the critics who find seriously held, fantastical beliefs to be ridiculous or just plain silly.

      It works both ways.

      "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

      by wader on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 12:25:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's a difference (6+ / 0-)

        There's a difference between calling a belief fantastical or ridiculous and in implying that we should scan people's brains and condemn them for having a scannable disorder.  

        •  . (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          84thProblem, wader

          Yes there is.

          The biggest difference is that the latter is hyperbole.

          The plural of anecdote is not data.

          by Skipbidder on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 06:06:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Which is dangerous. Which is why I HRd (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            guppymoo

            Gould we also make Mormons who fail Plutos brains can wear little blue cut outs of the Angel Moroni too?  Because that's what it is related to

            This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

            by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:00:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not sure how hyperbole is dangerous (0+ / 0-)

              in this perspective.

              I didn't read Pluto as calling for a medical diagnosis and categorization of believers - she simply has strong feelings on the nature of how healthy religious faith can sometimes be, it seems.

              Yes, her categorization in this case was harsh and unnecessary, but I also see it as a provocative device.  So, it's good to debate whether that was an appropriate method to use, but I honestly don't see it as dangerous or the start of a slippery slope.  Especially given the context of mega-churches, blind faith in voting with a church's political direction vs. one's personal rationalization, etc. that came through in this diary.

              "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

              by wader on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 03:03:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  There is also a difference between (0+ / 0-)

          hyperbole and sincere medical advice.

          I took this diary as using the former device to gain a reaction, but also reflect their perspective that believers may want to reconsider if their belief system is healthy.

          Of course some folks will react severely, since our society is traditionally used to considering religious faith as a mainstream concept.  Challenging that common acceptance is part and parcel of this diary's core message, I feel.

          I wouldn't have used that device, personally.

          "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

          by wader on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 02:59:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  "mental disorder" might not be the right choice of (8+ / 0-)

      words but religion is a profoundly negative influence throughout human history.

      Just because you choose to believe something, that doesn't make it true. The sentiment "Mine is the one true religion and all others are false," is an ugly part of nearly every religion.

      Paraphrasing Voltaire, "A man who cam be made to believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities." God knows most intentional atrocities (on a genocidal scale) have had a religious component.

      And telling a small child (all children have experienced the pain of a minor burn injury) that they will burn in hell for all eternity if they do not adopt your absurd belief system will someday, I hope, be considered a form of child abuse.

      A religion is a large popular cult. A cult is a small unpopular religion. Turning the story of a great spiritual teacher into a simple blood sacrifice makes Christianity akin to the most primitive of religious practices.

      Or you can choose an updated kind of mythology. L. Ron Hubbard might be your style.

      Or of course, the convicted con man Joseph Smith. The convictions are a matter of record I believe. But his most successful con came by convincing folks that an angel guided him to golden tablets which he translated by viewing through a seeing stone (a fad circa 1823).

      Luckily for Joseph Smith, George Eastman didn't make the Kodak camera readily available until 1888 so there's an easy explanation for why no on else ever saw the tablets.

      Anyone can have a spiritual experience and you don't have to profess belief in nonsense or utter magic incantations. You do however, have to look past the pastors and priests who would have you believe they are somehow closer to God than yourself.

      Lastly did you know Section 132 of the Doctrine and Convenants (the other Mormon scriptures being the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price) still requires men to take multiple wives before they are full members of the church and fit for heaven?

      Of course the mainstream church in Salt Lake City decided not to fight the Federal Government on this point some time ago but the area crossing the border of Utah and Arizona is full of polygamous communities and they have compounds in Canada too.

      It's time for the human race to outgrow religion. We'll never outgrow religious experiences, there's just no need to force our experiences or views on anyone else. I keep my spirituality to myself. I wish everyone else would do likewise.

      Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

      by FrY10cK on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 04:03:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No buts. (5+ / 0-)
        "mental disorder" might not be the right choice of words
        It isn't. It's pernicious and the kind of crap that could alienate all religious people from the Democratic Party if the party adopted such a world view.

        The fact that I agree with the importance of allegiance to a secular constitution also means that I embrace the prohibition on religious tests for candidates for office. You can feel free to reject all believers on the basis of the historical damage done by other believers, but I notice you refused to address the contributions of Dr. King in the other sub-thread. Do you think he had a mental disorder or was a victim of the "massive brain programming" Pluto alleges?

        I should say, too, that Pluto is someone I've interacted with many times. My HR is not personal at all, but was a considered action. However, I just re-read this and will remove the HR:

        Hide rating a tip jar is not intended to be used against anyone but the most obvious and egregious of trolls.
        Pluto is expressing bigotry against religious people, and I think it is harmful to express it, but he is surely no troll. But that doesn't mean I will soft-pedal this. It is possible to make the basic argument against prayer at government functions without insulting all religious people.

        Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

        by MichaelNY on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 05:28:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

          Good job in recognizing your hide rating abuse.

          The plural of anecdote is not data.

          by Skipbidder on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 06:08:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I still think that this kind of crap is harmful (5+ / 0-)

            to the community, though, and it's on that basis that I HRed in the first place. I do not consider my HR to have been abusive and resent its being described as such. I merely recognize from previous experience that Pluto is not a troll.

            Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

            by MichaelNY on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 06:28:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I apologize (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MichaelNY

              I know you resented it being described as abusive. Your HR was a completely understandable emotional response. The diary was inflammatory (purposefully so, I suspect) in the language used. Your position on the questionable choice of language is likely to be the plurality opinion here. It might even be the plurality opinion amongst the nonbelievers.

              Even though you really didn't like the way diarist said it, you recognized that the HR wasn't really appropriate given the norms of DKos. In removing it, and then continuing the discourse, we got to see an interesting response from Frylock that furthered the discussion.

              My comment was mean, and was akin to poking you with a stick when I actually think you did a fine thing. I am sorry about that. Mea culpa.

              In discussions amongst atheists on the internet, tone is frequently a point of contention. There are rip-roaring arguments about the level of civility one should strive for and the level of hyperbole one should use. You could post the diary on one of our message boards and generate a ton of discussion about whether or not the tone was appropriate and whether or not it was counterproductive.

              The plural of anecdote is not data.

              by Skipbidder on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:44:10 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Skipbidder

          Picture a bright blue ball just spinnin' spinnin' free. It's dizzy with possibility.

          by lockewasright on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:40:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  So now all religion is a mental disorder? (0+ / 0-)

            Because I had a comment HRed to piece for making that same point.

            So, according to dailykos, accusainh any other religion of being a mental disorder, HRable.   Accusing Mormonism of being a mental disorder: just great!

            You don't see a problem with that?

            This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

            by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:04:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's not what I, or the article says. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Skipbidder

              However, dismissing the empirical just because you don't like it is a fool's errand.

              The study in that article isn't the only one either.

              My point is that you have Hide Rated a legitimate point of contention because you don't like that the point of view even exists.  That's not how we do it.

              Picture a bright blue ball just spinnin' spinnin' free. It's dizzy with possibility.

              by lockewasright on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:09:32 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No I didn't (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                guppymoo, MichaelNY

                Just because one can detect religiosity, does not make it a mental defect.   That is my point.   Calling it a defect if bigotry.   Mental difference? Sure

                Then suggesting that members of a particular religion only should have this label, when the phenomenon occurs also in other religions is inconsistent.   The study you cite is not limited to Mormons.  Therefore is you want to label Mormons as mentally defective then there is no basis for not labeling ALL religious people mentally defective.  

                However when I point out that thi would necessarily be the results I get 6 HRs.  If you beleive you shouldn't HR legitimate points of disagreement you have to update me to offset.

                This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

                by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:14:40 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I am under no obligation to uprate you (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Skipbidder, BYw

                  for having done the wrong thing just because others have also done the wrong thing.  Instead, I've done the rational thing and not showed agreement with either wrong thing.

                  The diary does not say that only mormons suffer a mental disorder associated with religious belief any more than saying that people who eat too much butter and bacon can suffer cardiac problems.  It's not a statement that butter and bacon are the only way to get a cardiac issue.  It's also not accurate to say that everyone who eats those things will develop a cardiac problem.  There is, however, an empirical association.

                  The fact is that there is data to show the shrinking hippocampus over time in believers and that there is also data to show an association between frontal lobe epilepsy and religious hallucination too.

                  Picture a bright blue ball just spinnin' spinnin' free. It's dizzy with possibility.

                  by lockewasright on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:25:22 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well that's one approach (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    MichaelNY

                    To take the view that ALL religions are mental disorders.   In which case you shouldn't HR a comment you interpreted as having said that (granted that those who HRed me cannot distinguish be tween a declarative statement and a rhetorical question. (See one has a question mark at the end).  But no you aren't under any obligation

                    And as a former scientist I can tell you a single study doesn't tell you a lot, but that's another story

                    This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

                    by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:38:22 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I have not suggested to ALL religions are (0+ / 0-)

                      mental disorders.  I have suggested that some believers, regardless of sect, are believers as a result of a mental disorder.  The rest are believers as a result of either a reason disorder or child abuse in the form of indoctrination when they were too young to defend themselves.

                      Picture a bright blue ball just spinnin' spinnin' free. It's dizzy with possibility.

                      by lockewasright on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 06:39:43 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Bigotry is HRable period (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MichaelNY

          Beleive me, if such views of, say, black people or jews as and "mentally disordered" people would have no trouble seeing the terribleness of it

          This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

          by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:02:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

            Continuing your false equivalences here.

            The plural of anecdote is not data.

            by Skipbidder on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:41:05 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is only not equivalent (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mahakali overdrive, MichaelNY

              In that you don't like bigotry against some groups, but find bigotry against others perfectly acceptable.  I have seen this before.   ( see of example civil rights activists who opposed marriage equality).

              Please elaborate on why you think blanket negative pejorative statements against Mormons are acceptable but such statement against Jews, for example, are not

              The floor is yours to defend your proposition

              This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

              by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:19:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  no content discussions with HR abusers (0+ / 0-)

                Here is a diary to help explain Troll Ratings to you:

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                I am not the diarist. I am not arguing about your position. We are not having a discussion about the content of the diary at this point in time. There is no chance that we will have a discussion while you still have HR'd the Tip Jar.

                Your are using the hide rating to indicate your disapproval on an idea. This is not their purpose, nor is it their evolved usage.

                You are not allowed to HR and then try to debate the idea. You can do one or the other. You can hide rate it an perhaps explain your reasoning for doing so. If so, then you cannot try to have a discussion about the content.

                In the alternative, you could have chosen not to HR it and try to have a discussion (at whatever level of civility you feel is warranted within the bounds of acceptable behavior on the site--given the nature of the subject matter, a wide berth would likely have been allowed).

                I would have been very interested in hearing a discussion between the original diarist and those that disagreed. Since my disagreement with the diarist is in regards to potentially inflammatory tone and hyperbole that isn't necessarily clearly identifiable as such, I am really in no position to drive the "against" part of the discussion.

                You are not in such a position either. You could have been. You still could be if you remove your HR and thus admit that you were engaging in abuse of the HR system. Until that point, I suspect that you will continue to be largely ignored in this diary (except for getting your own hide ratings when you engage in personal attack).

                The plural of anecdote is not data.

                by Skipbidder on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:20:37 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are in no position (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MichaelNY

                  Because you are defending the proposition that calling Mormonism a brain disorder is somehow within the bounds of acceptable statements here

                  This notion that one cannot HR a comment and then engage in discussion with the stammers defenders runs entirely counter to practice here

                  This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

                  by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:28:05 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  done commenting on content (0+ / 0-)

                I apologize for discussing content. It was unfair of me to comment on the content of your comment when I am not going to continue the discussion because of your blatant HR abuse.

                The plural of anecdote is not data.

                by Skipbidder on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:22:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It is a sad day (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MichaelNY

                  When blatant bigotry isn't HRable

                  This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

                  by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:25:43 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  no content discussions with HR abusers (0+ / 0-)

                    I apologize for giving you the impression that I was going to discuss content with you.

                    The plural of anecdote is not data.

                    by Skipbidder on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:28:40 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No I wouldn't expect (0+ / 0-)

                      Any discussion with unapologetic defenders of bigotry like yourself

                      This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

                      by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:29:35 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  baseless accusation (0+ / 0-)

                        You are skirting the edges of another HR for yourself right there.

                        Please provide a quote from this thread where I am defending bigotry or retract your completely baseless accusation.

                        The plural of anecdote is not data.

                        by Skipbidder on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:46:15 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Retracted (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          MichaelNY, mahakali overdrive

                          Even if true, there no real need to be nasty

                          My perception is that the diary contains a very bad statement which I HRd and seeing widespread support for it, argued against it.   You have seen fit to defend the statement against my assertion the this statement should be invisible (you should refer to the FAQ for a fuller discussion than is contained in Hunter's piece)

                          Now we will have to agree to disagree.  To think such statements are within bounds and I do not.  I beleive the site policies and practice support me, although apparently only certain groups are actually subject to this principle

                          This has been a golden age for confirmation bias. - David Brooks

                          by Mindful Nature on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:57:17 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (141)
  • Community (68)
  • Baltimore (64)
  • Bernie Sanders (49)
  • Freddie Gray (38)
  • Civil Rights (36)
  • Hillary Clinton (25)
  • Elections (25)
  • Racism (23)
  • Culture (22)
  • Education (20)
  • Labor (20)
  • Law (19)
  • Media (19)
  • Economy (17)
  • Rescued (17)
  • Science (15)
  • Politics (15)
  • 2016 (15)
  • Texas (13)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site