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View Diary: I know you think praying at government events is normal, but it's really not. (302 comments)

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  •  I agree with you completely (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MichaelNY, Matt Z, mahakali overdrive

    And I would like to add that there's another reason that we shouldn't embrace speech like this on DK -- it is not productive. Of course we should promote true separation between religion and government, and the path to achieving this absolutely does NOT include insulting a significant number of Americans for their beliefs.

    •  Please open your minds a little and consider (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      isabelle hayes, BYw

      that the constantly alternating litany of praising and beseeching of God that comprises many of the Christian and Jewish services I have attended, this constant praising and beseeching is a very primitive behavior.

      It could be that someday, excessive religiosity will have it's own entry in the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of mental disorders.

      Certainly the pressure put on children to conform, the stories of burning in hell for all eternity, these are a form of child abuse.

      Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

      by FrY10cK on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 04:14:55 AM PST

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      •  The use of "primitive" to describe contemporary (3+ / 0-)
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        guppymoo, Matt Z, mahakali overdrive

        human behavior is a form of unreconstructed prejudice, harkening back to the time when the pernicious pseudo-science of cultural evolutionism was dominant in Western thought and used to justify white domination in all its aspects.

        I will not debate about religion with you. I am a pretty secular person, but I judge people not by their religious beliefs or the lack thereof, but by their behavior. And I also know that if Democrats antagonize all religious people, we will never win elections nationwide, nor in most states.

        Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

        by MichaelNY on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 04:52:12 AM PST

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        •  And what of pressuring children to adopt (0+ / 0-)

          an adult's chosen beliefs? And using stories of burning in hell for all eternity to induce conformity in children?

          Is this acceptable to you?

          Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

          by FrY10cK on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 06:16:05 AM PST

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          •  Let's put it this way (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            guppymoo, mahakali overdrive

            Forbidding such practices is much more abhorrent to me than doing them. My religion does not believe in damnation, for the most part, so those kinds of stories were part of my childhood only inasmuch as missionaries tried unsuccessfully to convert me or I saw some fire and brimstone preacher on TV. I don't approve, but that's a far cry from conflating it with actions that fall under legal statutes as constituting child abuse.

            Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

            by MichaelNY on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 06:22:36 AM PST

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            •  My hope is that someday those actions will be (0+ / 0-)

              covered by child abuse statues. Then the human race can grow beyond the mental virus that is religion.

              Not spirituality, not religious experience,  not faith, hope, charity, or any other virtues, but religion based on nothing but what one has chosen to believe or been coerced to believe: that is what the human race needs to grow beyond.

              Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

              by FrY10cK on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:59:30 AM PST

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              •  Forbidding fire and brimstone preaching (0+ / 0-)

                by statute is a step toward totalitarianism. It's precisely the forms of speech that we most hate that need the highest level of protection. Many atheistic members of the ACLU would and have said that exact thing.

                Formerly Pan on Swing State Project

                by MichaelNY on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 12:46:02 PM PST

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                •  No. Minors need protection from coercive (0+ / 0-)

                  speech, from coercion in general.

                  Once they reach the age of majority they're fair game for the proselytizers and hucksters.

                  Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

                  by FrY10cK on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 01:37:32 PM PST

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      •  Context is important (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MichaelNY, mahakali overdrive, Smoh

        I believe that I am better now, as an atheist, than I was when I was a believing Catholic. However, I didn't change my mind because people told me that my belief was 'primitive' or that my belief probably constituted a mental disorder. I changed my mind because I had conversations and experiences with some very smart, upstanding, and respectful atheists and had the opportunity to inspect religion philosophically. Insulting people isn't going to get them to change their mind -- in fact, it will probably do the opposite. Let's just be good examples of being respectful, moral, unbelieving individuals.

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