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View Diary: Walmart warehouse workers strike in response to retaliation. And Black Friday is coming. (92 comments)

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  •  I'll take a crack at this. (5+ / 0-)

    It's bad to export jobs because we lose all control over them.  The people in China are not covered by the laws that protect our workers, both their safety and their wages.  And any taxes that are paid are lost to us here.

    The plan, by the way, is not to import cheaper labor.  If people come into the country to work, the plan is to raise their salaries, not lower ours.  Yes, that's a fight.  But at the end is human dignity and taxes paid into OUR treasury.

    And incidentally, the people in China are not red.  They're yellow.  The red people are Native Americans.  Try to keep your bigotry straight.

    I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. -- Thomas Jefferson

    by nilajean on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:42:57 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  And This Is How Much Importance I Give (0+ / 0-)

      And incidentally, the people in China are not red

      To the color.

      Try to keep your bigotry straight

      By trying to eliminate ethnicity, race, color, from the argument I am a bigot. Got it.

      The people in China are not covered by the laws that protect our workers

      And you would argue that the U.S. is in more or less control of these laws then two decades ago? I would argue that American wages are not rising and have not been for a long time. I would argue that the conditions and laws governing American workers have gotten worse, not better.

      I would argue that a lot of the reason for this is the supply of available cheaper labor.

      And your counter argument would consist of what?

      If people come into the country to work, the plan is to raise their salaries, not lower ours

      And how do you do this given that the supply of available labor, cheaper, is available? Do you know something about supply and demand that I don't?

      I won't be coming home tonight, my generation will put it right - Genesis 9:3

      by superscalar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:51:49 AM PST

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      •  We'll raise wages (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gustynpip

        the same way we've done it for the last 150 years.  Workers will get angry and fight and strike and form unions.  Sometimes we'll lose, sometimes we won't raise wages for decades, and we'll have to take on the immigrant folks as allies to succeed.

        I'm not happy about it, watching wages plummet in, for instance, the roofing installation industry, but the alternative of hating, and trying to choke off the powerful force of immigration, hasn't worked either.

        •  I Don't Think So (0+ / 0-)

          Because the union labor movement relies either upon a high demand for, or a low supply of, labor.

          I do wish the union labor movement all the best however.

          I won't be coming home tonight, my generation will put it right - Genesis 9:3

          by superscalar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 11:33:00 AM PST

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          •  Nope. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gustynpip

            As I say below, read the history of the labor movement.  What, you think the Gilded Age had a low demand for labor?  Please.  Who do you think was doing all the gilding?

            Read.

            Read history.

            You'll learn something.

            I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. -- Thomas Jefferson

            by nilajean on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 11:53:08 AM PST

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            •  No, In Fact I Think That The Gilded Age (0+ / 0-)

              What, you think the Gilded Age had a low demand for labor?

              Had both a very high demand for, and a relatively low supply of, labor.

              Because the union labor movement relies either upon a high demand for, or a low supply of, labor.
              Read.

              Ummm ... Okay

              Read history.

              Ummm ... Okay

              You'll learn something.

              Ummm ... Okay

              I won't be coming home tonight, my generation will put it right - Genesis 9:3

              by superscalar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 12:10:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No again (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gustynpip
                Had both a very high demand for, and a relatively low supply of, labor.
                VERY high immigration rate at that time.  Irish fleeing the Potato Famine, for example.  Unable to get good jobs ("No Irish Need Apply" under the "Help Wanted" signs, for instance), the settled for whatever they could get at whatever pay they could get.

                Sound familiar?

                I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. -- Thomas Jefferson

                by nilajean on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 12:33:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  proud, angry labor (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KibbutzAmiad

            can overcome the so-called free market.

      •  You're missing the point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Munchkn, gustynpip, politicalceci
        By trying to eliminate ethnicity, race, color, from the argument I am a bigot. Got it.
        If you wanted to eliminate ethnicity, race, color from the argument it would have been "the people in China" not "the red people in China".
        And you would argue that the U.S. is in more or less control of these laws then two decades ago? I would argue that American wages are not rising and have not been for a long time. I would argue that the conditions and laws governing American workers have gotten worse, not better.

        I would argue that a lot of the reason for this is the supply of available cheaper labor.

        And your counter argument would consist of what?

        My argument is that things change and often go in cycles.  Assuming for the sake of argument that things are worse than 20 years ago, they're still better than the working conditions in China, where people work for less than a dollar a day, live in crowded dormitories and the factories put up nets to stop people from killing themselves by throwing themselves off the roofs of the factories.
        And how do you do this given that the supply of available labor, cheaper, is available? Do you know something about supply and demand that I don't?
        Yes.  I know that the law of supply and demand is only one factor to consider when you start analyzing labor.  Read the history of labor unions, for one.  People have been sold a bill of goods by Republicans on this subject, and having forgotten the lessons of history may have to relive it.

        I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. -- Thomas Jefferson

        by nilajean on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 11:49:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here Are The First Two Comments (0+ / 0-)
          Here You Go (1+ / 0-)
          Blame China, blame us

          And as I have been writing here now for the now past eight years, do wake me up when Markos, any of the front pagers here, or for that matter a large part of the Democratic Party can say 'NAFTA' and 'illegal immigration' in the same sentence.

          'Comprehensive Immigration Reform', The Prequel

          Ah yes, it's all those illegal brown people's (4+ / 0-)
          fault.  Not the greed of the Walton family.  Not the greed of consumers wanting more for cheaper.  Nope.  Everyone would be paid fine, fair, living wages if we just didn't have any of the illegal brown people here.

          FAIL.

          You will please notice that I never used a color, ethnicity, or race, in my comment, and it was the supposed 'Liberal Democrat' who jumped at the opportunity to simultaneously introduce ethnicity into the discussion and use the term 'brown people'.

          The real sad and pathetic thing about all of this is all those 'attaboys' that this individual will always receive for doing so.

          I won't be coming home tonight, my generation will put it right - Genesis 9:3

          by superscalar on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 12:03:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And . . . (0+ / 0-)

            The rest of the argument?

            The whole "supply and demand" thing?

            Labor organization and history?

            You're abandoning it?

            I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. -- Thomas Jefferson

            by nilajean on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 12:12:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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