Skip to main content

View Diary: Who are the "Makers" and the "Takers"? (99 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  sorry.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk

    a startup has no "proceeds from labor"  Because there was no product from which to realize proceeds.

    •  expected proceeds. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      psyched, caul, katiec

      If there isn't an expectation of proceeds they wouldn't be hired.  Just because someone is prepaid for services doesn't mean that the value of their services is wothless.

      Our Dime: Understanding the Federal Budget

      by Dustin Mineau on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 07:14:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not sure.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk

        ...we are both being (un)intentionally thick here.  Sure there has to be the expectation of proceeds from both capital and labor, but it is generally not labor that pays labors salary until there are customers providing revenue.  That is the capitalists role.

        •  But the capitalist does not do the work and pays (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          katiec

          as little as possible no matter the margin between cost and selling price. The proceeds of labor rightfully belong to the laborer but the capitalist forces down wages in an illegitimate manner. Big difference between a guy who starts a small business and works side by side with the workers he employs and a capitalist who owns the means of production and by this ownership alone claims an outsized portion of the returns. Marx was not wrong about everything you know. His solutions may have been wrong but few have done a better job of explaining the problem.

          •  Capitalist takes the risk (0+ / 0-)

            (S)he invests millions that will be lost (and often are lost) if the business goes under. Additionally, the business founder has specific skills that the workers just do not have.

            When a business fails, the janitor loses his job and has to go find another one. The capitalist is out millions of dollars. That's the difference.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 09:35:40 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  So the millionair ends up with nothing, so does (0+ / 0-)

              the janitor.

              So....  what's the difference again?

              •  The janitor started with nothing (0+ / 0-)

                Besides, the janitor doesn't get 'nothing', he gets a year's wages or whatever. That's something in my book, especially if he knows how to save.

                No matter what, the janitor comes out ahead.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:52:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  .??? And as long as the business guy doesn't (0+ / 0-)

                  invest every penny, that is, also saves, he too comes out with something.

                  Your thinking is really odd.

                  •  Apparently we are talking at cross purposes (0+ / 0-)

                    The capitalist started with a lot of money. They might have earned it all themselves, they might have inherited it, they might be managing it on behalf of another entity. But if the business tanks, in all three scenarios they lose big.

                    The janitor has comparatively much less at risk. If the business fails he just finds another job doing the same work. In the meantime he's had this job that he might not otherwise have had.

                    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                    by Sparhawk on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 06:39:10 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  ideal world vs. today's world (0+ / 0-)

              In an ideal world with a real market, a capitalist investor will lose money and their "job" will be to make good decisions on where to put the money.  In today's world the top .1% power elite gets bailed out if they lose any significant amount of money.  This is what we should be working against.  Not demonizing the people who need food stamps and don't get bail outs.

              Our Dime: Understanding the Federal Budget

              by Dustin Mineau on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 11:43:35 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Preaching to the choir (0+ / 0-)

                No institution should ever be bailed out (at least without shareholders being wiped out and most management fired(.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:55:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •   being (un)intentionally thick (0+ / 0-)

          You might be right.  But I think the problem would help if we first clarify the difference between a capitalist and an entrepreneur.

          Our Dime: Understanding the Federal Budget

          by Dustin Mineau on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 07:09:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site