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View Diary: All Secessionists Can Self-Secede By Renouncing Their Citizenship (185 comments)

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  •  For the record, (33+ / 0-)

    Because I have been looking into this for a few years, this is not taken lightly.

    The US has one of the most vindictive policies against renunciation.

    At a minimum, if you do this you are black listed from ever receiving a re-entry visa.  So you will NEVER be allowed to legally enter the USA again.  Not to visit, not to work, not to attend a parent's funeral, not for ANYTHING.

    You will therefore need to leave the country immediately so you better have a new country lined up or you will quickly find yourself with no nationality whatsoever and will be falling back on refugee resources from any nation willing to provide them.

    Also, if they have any reason to suspect that you have done this for the purpose of tax evasion they can come after you for 10 years of projected taxes and with post-9/11 reciprocity for US legal powers around the world, it will be very very hard to hide from this and very expensive to fight in the courtroom (particularly as a non-citizen)

    Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

    by Wisper on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:12:12 AM PST

    •  That's why we should provide incentives for (12+ / 0-)

      impulsive rednecks to do it. I'd let them off the hookI'd even let them off the hook for the taxers.

      If enough of them leave, you won't have to think about leaving yourself. Think of the money we'll save wrestling with these people!

      Purging predominantly minority voters and requiring them to present IDs to vote in the face of VIRTUALLY NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD is RACISM! I hereby declare all consenting Republicans RACISTS until they stand up and object to these practices!

      by Words In Action on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:17:21 AM PST

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    •  This might not be necessary (5+ / 0-)

      They might be one of those takers not the makers so they might not owe anything.

    •  Strong incentives to renounce are an interesting (6+ / 0-)

      thought. I'm not advocating this, but I wonder whether research could be done on the demographics most likely to take advantage of renunciation if most practical barriers were removed.

      Could solving our problem with a lunatic right wing be as simple as saying "anyone that wants to renounce, can renounce, and can continue to live here—tax free, penalty free, but (1) without any further access to federal or state benefits, and (2) without the right to vote."

      Supposing for a moment (and again, we don't have data to support this) that it is primarily red-state right-wingers that would take the knee-jerk action of disengaging from the U.S., this would have the effect of both taking the big takers in the red states off of the balance sheets and keeping them out of elections at all levels.

      We could still jail them if they started shooting people up, or breaking the law, of course. And it would have the effect of creating a giant, ultraconservative underclass (if we proceed with the assumption that mostly far-right believers would take advantage), but it's a fascinating thought experiment.

      -9.63, 0.00
      I am not a purity troll. I am a purity warrior.

      by nobody at all on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:46:04 AM PST

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      •  The rich would do it (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fiddlingnero, apimomfan2

        in a heartbeat.

        Tax free? Penalty free? Hell, they'd be breaking down the doors.

        They don't care about voting. They only care about buying. And they could still donate to SuperPACs, so they could still buy a politician or two.

      •  I don't see how it could work (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Calamity Jean

        Someone who renounces U.S. citizenship no longer has the right to remain in the U.S. as a citizen, obviously.

        Nor are they green card holders, and I can't see a reason that the federal government would grant them green cards.

        Maybe they should be eligible to remain as temporary foreign workers.

        I don't think it would be fair to all the other non-American-citizens to have a special category of permanent residence.

        On the other hand, if they are working, they would continue to pay taxes toward all the programs they hate so much—without the right to vote.

    •  Penalties for secession (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sfbob, JayRaye, rmabelis, ssgbryan

      can be pretty tough, too.

      Ask the folks who lived along the route of Sherman's March...

      Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
      ¡Boycott Arizona!

      by litho on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:53:48 AM PST

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    •  Not a problem for those who hate the U.S. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      enough to want to secede.

      Further, affiant sayeth not.

      by Gary Norton on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 11:02:42 AM PST

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    •  not quite true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and I know this because I'm doing it.

      While you cannot work in the US ever again, you are allowed to visit.  You can attend your parent's funerals.  It is only if you are found to have renunciated for tax evasion that you can have the harsher penalty put on you.  And then NEVER mean NEVER. But that is not the norm.

      You cannot renunciate without being a citizen (or permanent resident?) of another country.  You cannot renunciate yourself into statelessness.

    •  not true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jane Lew

      I speak from experience; I renounced my US citizenship in 2011.  I had lived overseas for a number of years beforehand and had already been granted citizenship in another country contingent upon renounciation of my original citizenship.  I did not owe the IRS anything; there is an minimum income of roughly $200,000 that I did not meet ( I had filled out expat tax paperwork every year).  And I have since visited the US on a tourist visa twice since renouncing, and nobody ever batted an eye at my foreign passport with US place of birth; I carry my invalidated US passport with me, just in case.  

      The renounciation process was a bit of a hassle, especially since I live a long ways from the embassy.  I had to apply, follow up the application, and write an essay as to why I was renouncing.  Then I had to pay a whopping fee but in the end it was not an unpleasant experience; the consul was very kind and helpful, once he had gone through the required warnings about how it was a one-way process and I could not ever regret it and get my US citizenship back just like that.

      "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."-- Isaac Asimov.

      by ssundstoel on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:19:02 AM PST

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