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View Diary: RKBA: Oh noez! Not the UN Small Arms Treaty! (56 comments)

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  •  What are the "serious drawbacks" to waiting (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Johnny Nucleo

    periods?

    "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

    by glorificus on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:12:41 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Firstly, it does no good. (6+ / 0-)

      There has never been any evidence presented that waiting periods have any impact on crime.  That being the case, why limit a Civil Right with a pointless burden?  Just because it can be done?  Not a very good reason, in my opinion -- and we wouldn't put a similar restraint on any other Civil Right.

      Secondly, one who finds themselves in need of self-defense often need it immediately, instead of ten days later.

      Consider the abused spouse who has recently left home, only to be stalked and attacked by their former abuser.  They very well may need a form of self-defense before that waiting period is up.

      Now, I believe that I have digressed from the original point of this diary quite enough -- I did bring up the idea in the first place, so the inquiry deserved a response, but I would now prefer to get back to the topic at hand.

      Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

      by theatre goon on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:17:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are a fan of vigilantes? (0+ / 0-)

        1) If nothing else, I think a waiting period would allow a more thorough background check. With more inclusion of mental health information, Mr. Loughner and others may have been treated, not jailed.

        2) Ever hear of 911?

        3) Is this the approach promoted by law enforcement? And if you think an abused spouse's inner Dirty Harry will magically appear at the best possible moment, your ignorance is overwhelming.

        I am sure you will do whatever you want.

        "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

        by glorificus on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:11:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I said no such thing. (7+ / 0-)

          In fact, I said nothing anywhere near supportive of vigilantism -- as, I expect, you know quite well.

          It would appear that you are not here for actual discussion of this subject -- preferring, it would seem, to re-write what people have said into something you find it easier to attack.

          A common enough tactic, but wholly dishonest.

          Trolling, most would call it.

          I find it rather sad that there are those who prefer to disrupt discussion with such drivel, rather than trying to promote their own opinions on their own merit.

          I suppose, however, if those opinions have no merit, disruption is all that some people have left.

          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

          by theatre goon on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:25:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (3+ / 0-)

          1. A waiting period just annoys any firearm owner (non-first time). I want to buy a gun to shoot people! (I really don't but for the sake of argument, let's say I do.) Oh, there's a waiting period? I'll just go to the gun safe then and pick one of the roughly 30 I have.

          2. Ever hear of the police have no duty to protect you and when seconds count, the police are only minutes away?

          3. Most of the LEOs I'm familiar with up here are big fans of concealed carry.

          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

          by KVoimakas on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 06:03:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  KV, you live in a specialized environment. A (0+ / 0-)

            rural area with a low population. If you were talking about how MOST PEOPLE live - not out in the woods - you would have more credibility on the subject.

            Firearm owners get annoyed by waiting periods? Too bad. I get annoyed by yahoos and their guns having shooting sprees like Columbine, Aurora, Virginia Tech, Tucson and various other tragedies.

            And sweet Jeebus, all you can do scream "DON'T TOUCH MY PRECIOUS GUNS!!"

            And really, how many LEOs do you know? 10? 50? In Michigan? It's a big country, and you don't know most of it. Detroit cops like concealed carry?

            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

            by glorificus on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 06:19:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And now, outright lying. (3+ / 0-)
              And sweet Jeebus, all you can do scream "DON'T TOUCH MY PRECIOUS GUNS!!"
              No one said any such thing -- once again, you blatantly misrepresent what someone actually posted into something you feel more comfortable attacking.

              It is simply false, and a dishonest tactic.

              Outright and plain trolling -- nothing more, nothing less.

              Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

              by theatre goon on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 07:47:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Heh. (3+ / 0-)

              I wasn't saying that because it annoys me it shouldn't happen. I'm saying that all it is an annoyance.

              I also love the fact that you point to shooting incidents where a waiting period would've had no impact. Loughner bought his months ahead of time. The Columbine shooters got their's illegally. Memory serves, the others ALSO didn't just go buy a gun and start mowing people down. They planned it.

              I'll admit the LEOs I know aren't that many, but I'm not just talking about local (rural area) LEOs. I've gone to LEO firearms training and a surprising number support civilian concealed carry. Off the top of my head, one was an ex-SWAT officer from the Chicago area, one was a county cop from out in Washington from a mid-sized city, and the other was an FFDO from the Detroit area. It's not statistically relevant, but I've yet to run across a LEO who thinks concealed carry is a bad thing (in person, not online).  

              The rights of the few don't get squashed by the wants of the many. That's why we have a Constitution to begin with.

              Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

              by KVoimakas on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 08:37:00 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Obviously you haven't been paying attention. (0+ / 0-)
                The rights of the few don't get squashed by the wants of the many.
                Or since you are male, you don't have to. Every heard of the Republican War on Women? But that doesn't matter, only keeping your guns does.

                One Chicago officer, who got to play with the funnest stuff in SWAT, one county cop in Washington (how many massacres there?) and whatever an FFDO is from Detroit.

                But you'll continue to believe what you want.

                No, a waiting period would not have stopped the incidents I listed. But you and RKBA don't promote actions that would, like better mental heath care - you just scream, "DON'T TOUCH MY PRECIOUS GUNS."

                I'm not saying you are part of the problem, but neither do I see you as part of the solution.

                "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                by glorificus on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 01:16:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And yet another falsehood. (3+ / 0-)
                  But you and RKBA don't promote actions that would, like better mental heath care - you just scream, "DON'T TOUCH MY PRECIOUS GUNS."
                  We regularly advocate for better mental health care -- as well as supporting job creation and ending the disastrous and wholly failed "War on Drugs," to give only two other examples of responses to violent crime regularly advocated by RKBA group members.

                  Nor does anyone make the farcical statement, "Don't touch my precious guns."  Claims otherwise are simply false.

                  You are simply, yet again, attributing stances to others that they do not take.  This time, though, you go a step further, and deny that others take the stances that they actually do take.

                  Falsehood after falsehood after falsehood...

                  My own, unasked-for advice -- when you can only support your own stances with outright falsehoods, perhaps it's time to take a closer look at those stances.

                  Alternatively, of course, you are here to disrupt discussion simply for the sake of that disruption.  I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and lay your actions to the former motive, but it's getting harder and harder to do so, when you insist on escalating the falsehoods with each further post.

                  Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                  by theatre goon on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 01:40:25 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Falshood hell, flat out lie, lets call it like it (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    theatre goon, rockhound, KVoimakas

                    is.....If they have the knowledge of KV and the group they claim then they know damn well that not only KV but just about every damn member has advocated specifically for better mental health care as well as general healthcare for all. If you polled the group I think full blown single payer would win........Though anything over the obscenity that is our current system....

                    Most all have advocated for an end to the insane war on ourselves that Nixon then Reagan crammed down our throat with Democratic help all the way.

                    We have advocated for jobs and a decent living wage, for womens rights and gay rights and civil rights in general.  I love their sig line....they probably think it a joke, I agree with it wholeheartedly and completely.  More armed women would be a plus for society in general and might put a dent in the rapist demographic....

                    When we solve the societal pressures that nurture violence in all forms then we will be getting somewhere.......

                    Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                    I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                    Emiliano Zapata

                    by buddabelly on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 02:48:06 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Are you talking to me? "they" and "their" are (0+ / 0-)

                      plural. And I haven't seen seen you all advocating for what you say, which doesn't mean you are not correct.

                      I love their sig line....they probably think it a joke, I agree with it wholeheartedly and completely.  More armed women would be a plus for society in general and might put a dent in the rapist demographic....
                      I don't think it's a joke, I think more women with guns and fewer men would be a great step forward.

                      I appreciate your thoughts on this.

                      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

                      by glorificus on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 03:01:13 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I just can't figure out... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rockhound, buddabelly

                      ...who it is that they think they're fooling with such blatant and nonsensical lies.

                      Really, do they think they're working us up?

                      We've seen such better trolling than this...

                      Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                      by theatre goon on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 03:19:34 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  How does that not matter? (4+ / 0-)

                  When I went to Stupak's town hall, I talked about abortion and The Family (C Street). Abortion should be easier to obtain than a firearm and I'm more of an extremist on that than I am on RKBA.

                  FFDO is federal flight deck officer. You know, the guys ARMED IN PLANES.

                  I'm laughing at this:

                  But you and RKBA don't promote actions that would, like better mental heath care - you just scream, "DON'T TOUCH MY PRECIOUS GUNS."
                  I guess you don't read elsewhere?
                  Tipped for conversation. (10+ / 0-)
                  I think that if we focus on single payer health care, more jobs, education, stop the war on drugs (legalize marijuana), and improve our social safety nets, violent crime of all tops will drop.

                  Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 10:38:51 AM CST

                  [ Reply to this ]

                  Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 02:01:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Do you think... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rockhound, buddabelly, KVoimakas

                    ...that those engage in this sort of thing really believe that they are outwitting us, or are somehow making us angry?

                    Seriously -- it's so... pedestrian... that surely they don't really believe their own "arguments" are really persuasive, or that they are so very witty that people just sit and gnash their teeth at such silliness.

                    I mean, if they do... well... that's just sadder than I want to contemplate at the moment.

                    Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                    by theatre goon on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 02:17:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  "a specialized environment"? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KVoimakas, theatre goon, rockhound

              1.  Have you looked at a map lately?  It appears not... or if you did, you don't understand them.

              2.  Crime doesn't happen in cities?  Stats say otherwise.  But I guess you didn't know that either, huh....?

        •  Really? Self-defense =/= "vigilantes".... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon

          but you knew that.  Quite dishonest of you.

          1.  Back-ground checks are electronic.  They take seconds or minutes at most.  What do you mean by "more thorough"?  Improve mental health care access and you'll reduce the problem-laughners.

          2.  What do you do while waiting for "911"?  Please, be specific.

          3.a.  Only the ones who won't lie about it.  They know they can't be everywhere or anywhere instantly, and that your protection is your own responsibility until help can arrive, if you get the chance to call for it.  

          3.b.  " And if you think..."  You certainly didn't, nor did you do any research.  There are numerous websites that catalouge self-defense instances.  "...your ignorance is overwhelming."  Projection, at best.  

          "I am sure you will do whatever you want."  Indeed, I believe you will.  Good luck with that.

        •  Incorrect assumptions glorificus. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, buddabelly

          In a two decade career, I've known, worked with and/or trained, over 6000 "First Responders" as we now call Police/Fire/EMS personnel.  Some were really-really rural, where "wait for backup" as defined in the Academy is a 45 minute reality.  Other places I've worked call themselves "the Nation's 4th largest city" bigger than Houston, and nearly matching Chicago.

          I've also been shot, stabbed, sliced and set on fire.  I got better.

          Cops are not of one mindset, even when employed in the same job and jurisdiction.  You have cops who are comfortable with guns, and those who are not.
          If you're anti-gun going in, you'll be anti-gun on the job.
          Police Commanders and Management will always answer in the manner their civilian employers require.  
          No one in NYPD will answer in a fashion other than what's on Mayor Bloomberg's mind.  It's career suicide.

          You can be trained or indoctrinated to an anti-gun mindset at the academy, moreso post 9-11 with the "us or them" prevailing mantra.  
          You've seen this attitude and the disproportionate use of force on the Occupy movement.

          There's a downside to being so gun-focused when on the job.
          Plainclothes and undercover cops are shot, despite wearing "color of the day" and displaying badges.  Those identifications go unseen, as only the gun is present in the mind of the officer.

          Uniformed cops get shot "as I saw the light reflect off the gun and fired" - a situation that isn't as uncommon as it should be.
          It's also why your body armor should be capable of resisting your department's issued ammunition.

          So I'm going to tackle these comments of yours:

          1) If nothing else, I think a waiting period would allow a more thorough background check. With more inclusion of mental health information, Mr. Loughner and others may have been treated, not jailed.
          I am not a Psychiatrist, though I've played one on the streets at 2 in the morning.
          A waiting period of a day, a year, or a decade will not dilute the State and Federal Laws regarding mental health, and patient privacy.  There's sufficient stigma to mental health issues, that obtaining casual consent for access of records currently isn't possible.
          I'm reasonably certain we know passionate people who will defend this barrier to intrusion.
          We'd need to weaken those laws for easier NICS access, and compel patient care providers to report diagnosis and treatment to the authorities.

          Recent news and more to the point:  The mother of the would-be "Aurora copycat" called authorities and claimed her son was disturbed and seeking to do harm to others.

          She didn't do the: "not my son, he's just confused/tormented/distraught" nor did she hide from the consequences:  "if I call, he'll really get angry with me".  That's of greatest importance, good active intelligence on would-be malefactors.

          2) Ever hear of 911?
          Yes.  It's the new "Dial 0".  It's a real good idea to dial, even-if there's no hope for active intervention by the authorities.
          There's mitigating factors:
          Hurricane, tornado, flood, blizzard, ice storm, long response distance, lack of house numbers, accomplices who tell the cops "no one here by that name", cops too lazy to get out, walk-up three flights and see what the problem is.  Seen it all.  Dial 9-1-1 often is at times no more effective than a Saint Christopher medal.
          3) Is this the approach promoted by law enforcement? And if you think an abused spouse's inner Dirty Harry will magically appear at the best possible moment, your ignorance is overwhelming.
          Most non-law enforcement women I've met are handicapped from a lifetime of reinforced "little woman" role.

          Even the more "radical feminist" of them still have a "females do this - males do that" mentality when it comes to violence.
          "Gun... so much a 'male' response to what would be a female verbal confrontation."

          Change that dynamic to female protecting her siblings or offspring.  See a somewhat different result.

          If there's three stereotypes I could draw on regarding firearms it's this:
          Men come in two fashions.  Those who are impressed with peeing while standing, therefore don't require any training on firearms.  "Gimme the gun and bullets - I'm good."
          Video games reinforce this.
          The flipside is the compulsive male competitor, who will never rest until all 15 shots are in one ragged hole the size of a quarter.

          Women, have universally pestered me to near death with 1001 questions, what-ifs, howzits, and should I, before picking up the gun.
          They will then practice until they see fit, claim "that'll do" and move on to other tasks of equal or greater priority.
          The gun has no more importance than number one daughter's dance lesson, son's Prom tuxedo, or daughter two's field hockey.

          Don't make the mistake of thinking she's "casual" or incompetent.  I've yet to see the Lifetime® television woman, who goes all to pieces, and has the gun taken from her.

          I have "rescued" men who've found themselves on the end of that gun, certain that death is soon to follow.  Odd having the intruder beg the cops to "hurry-up"... but I like it.

          For some odd reason, most women shoot low to begin with, and work their way up the target.  Five or so shots a handspan below the navel, the rest in the chest.
          When questioned, the usual answer is:  I AM HITTING him, RIGHT?

          Perhaps if I paid more attention in psychology class, I'd understand this to a greater degree.

          •  Wow. Now this is a comment I can respect. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            43north

            Without getting into details or even a discussion, this was very interesting.

            There was a poster on here around the beginnings of the Occupy events last year who was also in law enforcement. He brought what I thought was a realistic perspective to the discussion.

            No, cops like clergy or or nurses or baristas are people. They have unique personalities. However, of the groups I mentioned only cops and nurses have fatal equipment at their fingertips.

            Thanks for elevating the usual RKBA swamp.

            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

            by glorificus on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 06:09:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  IF I "elevated the RKBA swamp"? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              theatre goon, KVoimakas

              It's because I'm at the bottom doing the heavy lifting.
              Have you seen Theatre Goon?  
              We're not talking some Mia Farrow/Kate Moss-like waif.
              This man knows a flagon of ale when he sees one, oft empty, leaving his hand.  (look for his videos)

              You might be surprised at the level of involvement those RKBA-types have in real life consequences to firearms ownership.
              I can't say that applies on all venues, but on DKos, it's a fairly well-experienced, well-policed group.

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