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View Diary: What real secession looks like (37 comments)

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  •  "Real Secession" (14+ / 0-)

    looks like the Civil War.

    That it is unconstitutional for States to secede appears to have escaped the wingnut0sphere.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:22:26 PM PST

    •  I think (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jessical, twigg, Neuroptimalian

      In this era, I don't know how tenable that kind of conflict would be. If a region truly voted for secession and acceptable terms for separation could be found, then I imagine they would be let go. Use of force would be self-destructive and would likely lead to pressure from the international community (though I don't think the US would be all that susceptible to it).

      •  It wouldn't be tenable at all (7+ / 0-)

        Neither will it happen.

        A few hotheads wouldn't persuade any of the red states that secession was viable ... it simply isn't.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        by twigg on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:41:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Debt would be a major issue for secession. (0+ / 0-)

        Undoubtedly, they would argue that the States gets to have all the burden of the national debt, since it's not their fault that there's a national debt and it was created by liberals anyway.

        One amusing consequence is that it might be favorable to the budget deficit, since a lot of the states that receive more federal money than they pay in would be leaving the union.

        Of course, the new country would suffer catastrophic consequences of mismanagement and be right on the border of the US.  Not a good thing.

    •  not entirely (5+ / 0-)

      Peaceful secession can also look like any number of nascent national independence movements in Europe.  Or Quebec, if they should chose self determination at some future point.  The EU allows for that -as does the Canadian constitution, "notwithstanding".  

      As a queer, socialist inhabitant of cities, I absolutely hate that the US now has a national referendum every four years on, essentially, the issues of reconstruction.  It does not make me feel like a citizen, it makes me feel like a resident of an empire hitting the wall and capable of almost anything.  I have had the privilege of being an immigrant to a social democracy (I screwed it up for personal reasons) and it was a very different feeling, one I will never know unless I somehow go back.

      On the other hand, I don't think it is right to abandon social progress in Texas so that I can feel hunky-dory in Seattle.  But some 200 year old constitution?  It isn't a religious document, or even a universal one (though it had such aspirations) and the civil war didn't sanctify it.  The war ended slavery, but to spite the great accomplishment of that war, its terrible cost, or the grand rhetoric of Lincoln, it doesn't mean we should stick together forever when there is no coherent vision of society.  People deserve a working social contract, and we are not providing it.  To spite the fact the right is going nuts on the issue now, and it probably would look like civil war given our federal system as constituted, I don't think it is automatically that, or that the idea of America as it stands is all that special.

      Mileage varies.

      ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

      by jessical on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:37:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Mileage only varies (7+ / 0-)

        among a few of the stupidest people who have computers :)

        None of the states, whatever their color, are seriously considering secession, and nor will they.

        The Blue States are happy with the Union, for the most part, and the Red States will never cut their own throats like that.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        by twigg on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:43:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  well (3+ / 0-)

          I think it's mostly irrelevant at this point, since the federal government is very strong.  It just isn't in the cards, as you say.  Empires do fall, sometimes a lot faster than seemed possible at the outset -- but sometimes very slowly indeed.  The current cry for secession is a political absurdity, and we can poke fun to our heart's content.

          But I'm not entirely of the "they're all asshats" school, either.  People do want a society which makes sense in terms of their values.  As of today, as a liberal socialist type, I've got one!  The ACA will extend the safety net, I can hope that the idea of a floor to society will gain traction, and things seem OK.  But in another four years, honestly, we do this all again for the most basic of stakes.   It is possible I am very stupid (likely, even, some days) but I feel like there are real issues here, however unrealistically and absurdly addressed.

          ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

          by jessical on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:50:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  There are indeed real issues (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jessical, kpardue, jayden

            They are mainly, in this instance, to do with racism, and the very real anguish some have about the fact that "America" did not agree with them.

            I do agree that there are differences that need to be lessened however, with many who simply don't understand the issues.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            by twigg on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:57:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Racism, certainly (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              twigg, Zack from the SFV

              My sense is also there are issues around empire.  Even some on the right get it -- historically, they were isolationist until WW II, and might end up being so again.  How will we see the country when we decide endless war isn't affordable?  We could be so badly impoverished none of our hopes will make a difference.  We could see sensible domestic resource use which creates national infrastructure.  And we could see splintering along regional lines.  I do think the last is unlikely though, not only for the "face of it" reasons you note, but because the splintering is as much urban/rural as red/blue, and there's probably no solid geographic basis for it in the end -- here in Washington, it would mean a divorce between trade-dependent agriculture and traded-dependent technology, all going through the same ports, and the dissolution of state institutions which serve both red and blue.  There is a geographic basis for no longer paying federal taxes though.    How the endless war ends, in ten years or 100, I think will have a lot to do with what the map looks like after.

              ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

              by jessical on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:06:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'd accept the geographic basis (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jessical, jayden

                for not paying Federal taxes but for one thing ...

                We should help our neighbors, even when their ingratitude knows no bounds. I don't mind that the Blue states subsidise the Red, broadly.

                Maybe the argument is that the power of the states to govern themselves should be reduced, because so many appear to be incapable of acting in the interests of their citizens.

                I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                by twigg on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:16:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  heh (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  twigg, Kitsap River

                  as per my comment to DaveInBremerton, below...my commute to school each week last year was through a military base of 50 thousand people.  Hercules transports and apache wings thundering over the freeway.  Bremerton and Everett and Bangor have more military power than all but a handful of countries, all in our little state, enough to make a wasteland of the world.  That kind of power seldom goes away fast.  So unless or until that wanes -- seriously, not paying the troops wanes -- all this is just a discussion of the idea of where national centers should live and the social contracts they would create, I think.

                  I do think the idea of an America which includes the rich and poor regions is a great thing.  We've built the infrastructure and share the language.  We have still not settled the civil war, though.  I think we either chivvy the more authoritarian states along and all hang together in the format we have now -- which is too ossified to adapt, much -- or they win, and dismantle the social contract in places like Washington -- and/or the big scary federal show goes broke, and the national idea, the grand America of our lives, our parent's lives, and so on -- becomes unsustainable.  Right now we're not subsidizing our neighbors so much as paying for the machinery of armageddon, in preference to schools and health care and decent provision for the poor.  How will that unravel and how will each smaller political entity see the matter?  I think that's a cusp where stuff might change in ways which are hard to predict, at an impossible to forsee when.  But I do think it will happen.  

                  Sorry to go on.  Must go to bed.

                  ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

                  by jessical on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:27:22 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks Jessica (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jessical

                    Good conversation :)

                    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                    by twigg on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 10:30:29 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Sorry I wasn't present for this discussion (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm intrigued by your references to empire. Despite your emphasis it's not at all clear to me how empire connects with the dissolution of the US as a social and political entity. You seem to equate the two and while you may have reasons for thinking so, assuming I'm correct in my understanding, they aren't apparent to me.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:30:12 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  14 years ago, someone on the Vashon ferry told me (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jessical

                    that if Kitsap County seceded from the union and took the military bases with it, that we'd be the world's third largest nuclear power in terms of weaponry. And it isn't going away any time soon. If the military left here, it would utterly ruin our economy for a very, very long time.

                    Organ donors save lives! A donor's kidney gave me my life back on 02/18/11; he lives on in me. Please talk with your family about your wish to donate.

                    Why are war casualty counts "American troops" and "others" but never "human beings"?

                    by Kitsap River on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:17:02 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  I Agree. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jessical, DaveinBremerton, nchristine

        I don't know how many modern democratic countries have as diametrically opposed factions as the US. Perhaps its worse because we're limited to a two party system, but really... it feels like we're in a political civil war.

        I think your empire remark is not far from the truth. The U.S. is a large, diverse country and I think the current electoral system is nearing the breaking point. Unless changes are made to make the system more representative and fair, the problems are only going to get worse.

    •  And now our 21st century version (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      twigg

      looks like this:

      http://www.google.com/...

      How the mighty have fallen :)

      Handmade holiday gifts from Jan4insight on Zibbet. Get 10%off everytime with coupon code KOSSACK.

      by jan4insight on Wed Nov 14, 2012 at 09:38:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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