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View Diary: Why I'm Rejecting Rabbi Yoffie's Call for Progressive Jews to Support Israel's Bombing of Gaza (328 comments)

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  •  I don't know who would think this... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sandbox, chujb, hester

    Plenty of Jews have no ethnic, cultural, religious, racial or any other kind of Jewish identity, will not marry other Jews, and will not raise their children as Jewish. But the reality is, no Israel, no Jews. In many, many places in the world, for thousands of years, right up through today, Jews were at risk not just of discrimination but of annihilation. And everyone was willing to feel bad for them, but not do a damned thing. Only the most delusional, assimilated Jews think that Israel is unimportant.

    "You can die for Freedom, you just can't exercise it"

    by shmuelman on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 12:02:42 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  No Israel, no Jews? (13+ / 0-)

      That's pretty hyperbolic. If it weren't for Israel we Jews in Florida wouldn't last through the winter?

      •  history has a way of repeating itself (0+ / 0-)

        and over time, the one thing that seems to happen over and over again, if people try and kill all the jews, and it tends to almost work every time.

        •  You can justify almost any policy, (7+ / 0-)

          including genocide, by always suggesting that your own extermination is just around the corner. It is a dangerous stance.

          •  I ultimately agree with you (5+ / 0-)

            But if there were ever a group of people for whom fear of extermination has been shown to be fairly valid over history...

            On the other hand, I note that I have no queer state to run to, if the shit here hits the fan. :P

            Nobody ever gets long-term safety guarantees, and in trying to build something safer in the now, well... I don't have the answers there, but peace seldom comes from upping the war ante.

          •  but the genocide of most people (0+ / 0-)

            hasn't been right around the corner like it has been for the jews.

            •  The Palestinian people today are (6+ / 0-)

              weak and surrounded by a powerful Jewish state that basically has them subjugated. Palestinian terrorists can and do kill handfulls of Jews. But for us to claim today that Israel's policies toward the Palestinians is driven by some fear of Palestinian genocide of the Jews is just laughable. Jews in Europe were disperse and vulnerable. Israel today is the one with the military might and the power. And they are the ones building settlements in Palestinian territory.

              So to use the holocaust (and pograms of the past) as justification for what amounts to Jewish aggression is really, truly, laughable. Nobody - nobody - seriously believes that the Palestinians represent an existential threat to the Jews or to Israel.

              •  Except the Palestinians. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                People wish to be settled, only as far as they are unsettled is there any hope for them. - Emerson

                by CarbonFiberBoy on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:28:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  "to claim today that Israel's policies toward the (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo, Flying Goat, Celtic Merlin
                Palestinians is driven by some fear of Palestinian genocide of the Jews is just laughable.

                It's an ugly pretext & I'm just as disgusted by Israel military as I am at the bad cops who kill with impunity and then claim they were threatened by their victims.

                I'm angry at USA government complicity in helping Israeli military keep doing this.

                The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

                by stargaze on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:30:25 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Except for when hundreds of Peoples (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              stargaze, corvo, Asak, ask, PeterHug

              actually were completely wiped from the Earth in the New World in the span of a couple hundred years.

              Or when dozens of indigenous peoples were exterminated in South America in just the last fifty years.

              Lil' stuff like that.

              "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

              by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:40:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Nonsense. It's never come close to working in the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          last two thousand years.

          The score or so of various cases where nations have set out to kill or remove every Jewish person in their own territory....that's of course another story.

          Millions of Jews were entirely out of Hitlers reach.  He never stood any credible chance of actually achieving his goal of eradication. He had no way to invade the Western Hemisphere.

          He butchered over six million human beings in his insane effort to annihilate the Jewish People, and it was one of the greatest crimes in human history, but Babylonian captivity was the last time there was an imminent danger of Jews ceasing to exist as a People.

          "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

          by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:38:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I am not Jewish, but I agree that Israel (0+ / 0-)

      is important.  But it seems to me that people like Netanyahu are behaving as if the existence and success of Israel is much LESS important than their near-term political success.  This is the only way I can understand their insistence on scoring cheap domestic political points by continuing to build settlements, gradually making conditions in the West Bank and Gaza worse, and creating a situation on the ground that can never result in a stable Palestinian State.

      The inevitable and unavoidable end result of what has been happening over the last few years is either an intractable and never-ending war, or a one-state solution that leaves Israel either as NOT a democracy, or NOT a Jewish state.

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