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View Diary: Why I'm Rejecting Rabbi Yoffie's Call for Progressive Jews to Support Israel's Bombing of Gaza (328 comments)

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  •  Interesting... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sandbox

    If the Jews had a secure state, there would have been no holocaust. They had to fall back on the largesse of other nations to protect them, which, by the way, did not happen.

    "You can die for Freedom, you just can't exercise it"

    by shmuelman on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 12:04:12 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  There may be some truth in this argument, (7+ / 0-)

      although I don't see how putting Jews in one place-even if they had an army-would have stopped the Nazis from exterminating them.  

      It still doesn't justify allegiance with everything Israel and particularly Netanyahu does.

      "To recognize error, to cut losses, to alter course, is the most repugnant option in government." Historian Barbara Tuchman

      by Publius2008 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 12:12:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  if an Israeli state is truly essential (10+ / 0-)

      then it is All the more disconcerting that they would risk it all on keeping these poor people in ghettos while expanding the settlements. This is mitt Romney's self-deportation strategy unfolding in real life.

    •  That's just not true. (6+ / 0-)

      The overwhelming majority of Jews killed in the Shoa were not French or German or Austrian (hundreds of thousands of them were - I don't seek to diminish that at all) Jews who at least had a theoretical chance to leave if they could find a state to take them.

      The largest groups were Poles and Russians.  They were never given a chance to emigrate.  It's vanishingly unlikely that more than a relatively small percentage would have moved to some small state in a desert they were unfamiliar with.

      Millions would still have died.

      We could go around in circles making up "ifs" and speculating about how many fewer would have been killed, but there just isn't any reasonable case for denying that Hitler still would have attempted genocide, and still would have had millions of Jews (and millions of others) to massacre.

      "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

      by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:31:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  To clarify (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, Flying Goat, PeterHug
        It's vanishingly unlikely that more than a relatively small percentage would have moved to some small state in a desert they were unfamiliar with.
        I mean here prior to the respective invasions of Poland and the USSR, when they still would have had a chance to leave.

        "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

        by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:48:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not sure this is true. (0+ / 0-)

      As a counterexample, consider the Paraguayan War of 1864 - 1870.  Paraguay fought Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay...and lost.

      One estimate places total Paraguayan losses — through both war and disease — as high as 1.2 million people, or 90% of its pre-war population.  A different estimate places Paraguayan deaths at approximately 300,000 people out of its 500,000 to 525,000 prewar inhabitants.  According to Steven Pinker the war killed more than 60% of the population of Paraguay, making it proportionally the most destructive war in modern times.
      I am NOT trying to conflate this and the Holocaust.  I am using this as an example of how having a nominally secure state certainly does not prevent someone else from coming in and killing a large majority of your citizens.

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