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View Diary: Why I'm Rejecting Rabbi Yoffie's Call for Progressive Jews to Support Israel's Bombing of Gaza (328 comments)

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  •  Hey, I orignally supported the total (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW, Catte Nappe, BYw

    annihilation of Afghanistan after watching the beheading of Richard Pearl.  That doesn't make it morally acceptable, does it?

    Having morals isn't "childlike", is it?

    Stepping back and thinking about your actions before you go off half-cocked and wipe-out half the planet because you could makes sense how again???

    Peace isn't "childlike", what motivates the actions of these terrorists? Is it a psychotic desire to inflict pain on unsuspecting innocents, just for fun? Or is it something else?

    As the diarist points out, peace wasn't even 90-minutes old and the killing continued.

    The poster made themselves clear, they weren't "interested".  It sounded like a blood-lust revenge thingy, to me. Similar to what I have only experienced once in my entire life...as mentioned...seeing the beheading of Richard Pearl.

    That will get us where again? Dead...

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 12:37:27 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  "Childlike" is lashing out without regard for (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, gerrilea, RageKage, BYw, callmecassandra

      the impact of your actions whenever you're hurt or scared.

      You're certainly not the one engaged in childlike nonsense.

      "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

      by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:17:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Making Peace is hard (0+ / 0-)

      Making war is easy.

      let's not get lazy on this one

      •  Tell that to Hamas. All they have to do is (0+ / 0-)

        ask. That's it. Just ask for Permanent Peace and stop the rockets. It really is just that simple.

        I would bet you any amount of money that if Ismail Haniyeh came out and said... "Ok, Ok.... We recognize Israel's right to exist as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish People, we will not ask for Palestinian Right of Return, and we will put down our arms and stop trying to end your existence and in return you will recognize our right to exist as a nation with viable borders, will enter into a full peace treaty with us and drop your embargo of our territory... This would be done.

        BUT Hamas won't do that even though it would give their people peace because to them, maintaining their power and status as "vanguard of the Revolution" is just too important.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 03:43:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Remind us all, would you, (9+ / 0-)

          what Abbas got for stopping the car bombs.

          Here, I'll spot you one: continued land theft.

          •  Oh no need... Remind me again how Abbas agreed (0+ / 0-)

            to Olmerts plan, and renounced RoR?

            Oh and if you would remind me how stopping Car Bombs is the same as this:

            "Ok, Ok.... We recognize Israel's right to exist as the National Homeland and State of the Jewish People, we will not ask for Palestinian Right of Return, and we will put down our arms and stop trying to end your existence and in return you will recognize our right to exist as a nation with viable borders, will enter into a full peace treaty with us and drop your embargo of our territory...
            But that's cool - I will spot you one in return for you favor... It's not.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:12:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  They're not the same, of course. (4+ / 0-)

              But the continued land theft is justified by nothing.  Nothing.  Not even the Palestinians' refusal to accept surrender on your terms.

              •  Umm you seem to want to deflect from my original (0+ / 0-)

                point.

                As far as the settlements beyond the Olmert lines. I think they should be immediately dismantled. You won't get an argument from me. Will I withdraw any support for Israel because of it... not right now, not facing the threats that they face. IF however the Palestinians as you put it "surrendered", and the Israelis still did what they were doing... then that would temper my support a great deal.

                But hey, why not just keep fighting right? It has gone so well up to this point.

                "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:25:09 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The need to strike back at Hamas (5+ / 0-)

                  when Hamas strikes back at Israel is entirely understandable, although as even Israeli newspapers are pointing out, this is Bibi at his cynical worst, and you defend it.  Fine.

                  But as far as settlements are concerned: First of all, I don't give a damn about the Olmert lines unless both sides choose to.  Second, as I've pointed out, that other Palestine (there are now two), the WB, is not "fighting back."  It just hasn't surrendered sufficiently, so Israel is punishing it.  And third, consider for a moment the further punishments the Israeli government is discussing openly if Abbas continues his UN bid -- just the official ones, not even counting Evet's demand that Abbas be deposed by force.
                   

                  •  actually, I shouldn't have said (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gerrilea, callmecassandra

                    "even Israeli newspapers."  They're the only ones not avidly and uniformly toeing a pro-Bibi line.

                  •  As some opinion columnists are pointing out (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Spit

                    AND I can see why they say what they do. However, I also see what my actual friends are saying when they show me pictures of their house in the aftermath of a Qassam attack and I know that had their families not reached shelter in time they would be dead. I know that something had to be done. I know that a country simply cannot allow for 115-125 rockets to hit their territory and not do anything about that.

                    Now as far as the settlements go... you should care what the Olmert lines are, because that I believe, is the best that the Palestinians will get after all this time. As for your "surrendering sufficiently" no, they haven't. What can I tell you, it's just the way I feel.

                    Finally as for Abbas' being deposed.. That bothers me more than you know. It is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

                    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:43:19 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Evet says 40% of WB and Gaza. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JesseCW

                      That's more than Israel will ever offer.

                      •  Lieberman is not the be all end all of Israeli (0+ / 0-)

                        politics, he can be voted out of office.

                        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                        by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:57:34 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  He won't be (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          JesseCW, callmecassandra, Spit

                          unless Likud gets a majority.  Evet is the one person Bibi is scared of, and rightfully so.  

                          Face it: Israel is tilting ever more rightward; the demographic shift impelling that tilt is inexorable.  The best that Labor (which anyway is about as "left" as the American Democratic Party) can hope for is that Bibi really f*cks this latest war up big time AND can't blame his failure on the IDF.  Fat chance of any of that.  And I don't imagine you're hoping Bibi f*cks this latest war up big time, now, are you?

                          •  No, I don't hope that at all... Because I don't (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Spit

                            hope for things like that. BUT... that said, I simply don't think Bibi is taking Israel to a good place. So while I may agree with certain things he does it certainly doesn't mean I support him.

                            I agree with certain (one or two things Ron Paul says but I would vote for almost anyone before voting for that P.O.S.). Kinda like that.

                            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 08:11:17 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I appreciate you both (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1

                            you and corvo, having a conversation on the pieces of this -- the particulars -- that people usually skip over.

                            Just wanted to say that.

                    •  We know you feel they haven't. (0+ / 0-)

                      You won't feel they have as long as they continue to insist on existing.

                      We all get that.

                      Your objectives have been made clear.

                      "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

                      by JesseCW on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 10:18:55 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  But (0+ / 0-)

          why should they have to give up on right of return?

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