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View Diary: I/P The never ending cycle of blood. (53 comments)

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  •  With all due respect (2+ / 0-)
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    puzzled, FG

    I have no doubt this was written with the sincerest of intentions. Your inclusion of the idea that a one-state solution may be the only long term solution is one of those ideas that sounds good in theory. From the outside. But to the Israelis, it would be as if you were asked, in the interest of peace, to accept that abortions would no longer be legal in this country. It simply is not going to happen.

    •  Israel made a 2 state solution unworkable by (4+ / 0-)

      the settlements and protecting the settlements.

      The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

      by stargaze on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 08:02:42 AM PST

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      •  and the Hamas/IJ rockets/terrorist attacks (2+ / 0-)
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        Kane in CA, FG

        (not to mention constant states of war prior to that) helped matters?

        There is no 'Israel did this'.

        These are two groups of people who haven't been able to co-exist peacefully since the 19th century.  No one 'started it'.  It just is.  And it sucks that these people can't grow the hell up.

        •  yes, Israel build settlements and then took water (1+ / 0-)
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          rights away from existing Palestinian villages and cut down olive trees and restricting travel --

          Saying "no" to thieves is not what I would call "not growing up"

          The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

          by stargaze on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 12:45:27 PM PST

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          •  the settlements suck. Although you seem to (1+ / 0-)
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            forget 4 major international wars up thru 1973 which were a constant threat to the state's existence.  Is that reason to treat the Palestinians like crap? No.  But it is a reason not to trust its own security.  

            •  I'd say there was ample warning (0+ / 0-)

              And, no, Palestinians shouldn't be treated like crap.

              And I don't support more USA money going to support Israel.

              The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

              by stargaze on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 02:24:02 PM PST

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              •  ample warning of what? nt (0+ / 0-)
                •  The situation would be volatile (0+ / 0-)

                  Their neighbors didn't like their agenda.

                  I think in the 1930s local Arabs went on strike over the situation of Jewish immigration

                  Rather than trying to "peacefully coexist" I believe immigrants coming in wanted to expand and replace the communities already there. All the land grabs and water theft, the government doesn't want to peacefully coexist now.

                  Not a stable situation. Israel government is not doing a very good job of acting strategically toward a sustainable future.

                  I don't want my parts of my taxmoney going to help enable such behavior.

                  The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

                  by stargaze on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 04:28:13 PM PST

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    •  It has proven to be a failure, neither side (2+ / 0-)
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      puzzled, Kane in CA

      seems to take it seriously, and by not doing so this situation has no end in sight.

      Something else has to be done, genocide will not work either.

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 09:03:20 AM PST

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    •  You mean "Israelis at present" (0+ / 0-)

      rather than forever.

      It's 'unthinkable' now but things have a way of changing.  The country is so small that there is an inevitability in the long run.

      •  No, I don't (3+ / 0-)
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        puzzled, PrahaPartizan, FG

        I mean forever. Do you think women would voluntarily give up abortion rights in the US? Unthinkable? Could that change?

        The status quo  doesn't work, there is no question about that. But there is either Israel with Jewish autonomy or there is no Israel. Israelis have to face that. The only choices are to find a path to peace, endless war, or the end of Israel. For the moment, both the Palestinians and the Israelis seem content with endless war, but for Israel, that is a dead end game. The burden is theirs.

        •  That's too easy (0+ / 0-)

          and the usual denial doubling down on a binary absolutism.

          Judaism is significantly redefinable and modernizable.  Palestinians are historically religiously mixed, though in the past 60-70 years there's been a selection/purging for Islam and Islamism.

          Both sides appear to have locked in on really reactionary and exclusive forms of their religions and ethnicity/culture in the course of this conflict- but that doesn't make these forms the truth of what they really are as peoples in history.

          During WW2 and the Cold War the world had armies battle and millions die in the name of national ideologies that were reactionary and infused with insanity and highly based in in distorted readings of their peoples' histories.  These were temporarily believed by their peoples for instrumental purposes- to justify their aggressive revanchisms and violent addressing and settling of older tribal scores.  When these scores and some territorial issues were considered settled these ideologies quickly disintegrated among average people.

          If a Jewish state is the acceptable//desirable goal, the thing to do is make it possible for Palestinians to become acceptably Jewish- convert in significant numbers.  And to make mainstream Israeli Judaism significantly more competitive aka compatible with the Modern world in peacetime.  There is no long term victory in the 'battle of the cradles' or in trying to create a separate but (sorta) equal condition, be that as two states or two nonintegrable societies that will thus be condemned to constant efforts to dominate each other.

    •  more like telling red-staters to support choice (0+ / 0-)

      It will happen if we stand up for it.

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