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View Diary: I/P The never ending cycle of blood. (53 comments)

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  •  value the sentiments--except the one-state (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kane in CA

    solution part of it.  It's not possible.  It would be as destructive to Israeli Jews as the current situation is for Palestinian Arabs.  No Jew would ever feel safe in such a situation--just as no Gazan is safe now.

    It's 2-states, or war.  Unfortunately, Netanyahu and Hamas have chosen war.

    •  The 2 State solution doesn't work either, as they (2+ / 0-)
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      bluedust, PrahaPartizan

      seem to want the one State for themselves.

      They are set on the path to mutual destruction as it is.

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 09:08:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Israel wants the Palestinians to just go away and (2+ / 0-)
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        stargaze, PrahaPartizan

        let them have all the land.

        •  You have that (0+ / 0-)

          backwards.

          •  The Israelis don't want Palestinian land? (1+ / 0-)
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            poco

            Are not building settlements on land in the West Bank to which Palestinian families have held title for generations? And still have the deeds?

            The Israelis want the Palestinians to go away. The Israelis want to keep Palestinian land to which they have no legal claim and no claim beyond some 2000 year old ancestry story.  It's as though America should vacate the country for the Native Americans, who have a much stronger more recent claim to it than the Israelis to the West Bank.

            •  For the most part (1+ / 0-)
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              FG

              No. Most Israeilis would gladly give up the west bank, in a heartbeat in exchange for a secure lasting peace. Not all of them. But most.  The 2,000 year history is incidental to most Israelis.

              •  Israelis: Yes But Israeli Government: No (1+ / 0-)
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                bluedust

                Why do the polls taken indicate that Israelis would be willing to give up the Territories yet those same Israelis keep putting back into power (through the only poll which matters in politics) a political constellation which continues to appropriate those lands from those currently on them and to reduce their prospects for an economic future at every turn?  If the citizens in a democratic state are presumed to be responsible for their government, just how do we square this circle?

                As things stand right now, the two state solution is dead.  No Israeli offer in recent memory has done anything but allow for some Levantine Bantustans for the Palestinians, with no control over their political, economic, or physical security.  One morning the Palestinians are going to twig to that fact and ask the UN to allow them to vote on becoming full citizens of Israel rather than citizens of an independent Palestine.  Just how does Tel Aviv respond to that twist in the road?  

                "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

                by PrahaPartizan on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 01:57:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  B/c giving up land gave them no peace or security (0+ / 0-)

                  in the past. No reason for them to believe that things will be any different in the future.

                  •  Never Gave Up the Land (1+ / 0-)
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                    stargaze

                    The problem is that the Israelis never really gave up control of the land.  Oh, they made a show of withdrawing from Gaza, but they did it mostly because they knew it would be cheaper to run the open air prison it is by allowing the warders to manage the place.  The costs of trying to actively control Gaza had gotten too high, so the Israelis made a calculated withdrawal.  The Palestinians though weren't fooled by the sham generosity, because they never got control of the borders or the airspace, which Israel still kept closed.  So, no land was ever really given back and no peace was in anybody's future.

                    "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

                    by PrahaPartizan on Sun Nov 18, 2012 at 07:50:01 AM PST

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                    •  I agree that they gave up Gaza for the reasons (0+ / 0-)

                      you describe. But still, they did it. Did them no good. Same with South Lebanon (which they were occupying completely illegally and had no hope of holding long-term but still the same story).

            •  You're talking about a relatively small (1+ / 0-)
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              FG

              proportion.  

              Most Israelis couldn't care less about the settlements--they will support them if they believe it helps their security situation--will oppose them if they don't.  The reason many Israelis don't want to relinquish some of land in the territories is that they really feel that it will hasten the demise of the state.  It's not because they want Palestinian land, or want to kick Palestinians out.

        •  and they are using their superior forces and jails (1+ / 0-)
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          bluedust

          and checkpoints and harassment and  laws and water thieving and everything else to push at people to leave

          The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

          by stargaze on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 11:50:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  the 2-state solution doesn't work because there (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kane in CA, FG

        is none on the table.  The Israeli population doesn't one one-state for themselves (well, the settlers do)--it's the Netanyahu government.  And Hamas, of course, wants the 0 state solution.  For the Jews, that is.

        There may have been one under Rabin.  And one COULD have happened under Sharon--although things collapsed towards the end of 2000.  At least he disengaged.

        Either we work towards a 2-state solution as best we can or we resign ourselves to the fact that there is no answer and t this will continue.

        With the current parties in power, we will see no resolution.  None.  Pessimistic, yes, but accurate.  Why would anyone expect a solution NOW when there has never been one?

        We need conciliatory leaders in Israel, and  non-militant leaders in Palestine.  The PA can be worked with.  Hamas cannot.

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