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View Diary: Israel commits Mass Murder and Obama Silent again (145 comments)

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  •  Sheesh (0+ / 0-)

    My claim: Netanyahu is relatively unpopular and not representative of the majority of Israelis (60% of Israelis disapprove of Netanyahu's job (as of last Aug) and 75% of Israelis supported peace the very year Netanyahu was elected in 2009)

    Your claim: He has a majority in parliament...you're just unaware of how parliamentary coalitions work

    Yet still, a majority of Israelis disagree with Netanyahu and have from the moment he took office. He is NOT representative of Israel as a whole (my original point) particularly regarding peace with Palestinians.

    You can discuss what constitutes an "event" and parliamentary systems, but yet your position is not supported by the facts.

    FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes. I Had A Thought

    by mole333 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:08:30 AM PST

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    •  umm, Bibi heads a coalition (0+ / 0-)

      which has a Knesset majority.  Apologies if I didn't express myself clearly enough.

      Now as far as that 75% peace-loving Israeli majority is concerned, we all know how easily Israelis change their minds the minute there's a nice war to be fought.  They're kind of like Americans that way.  I also imagine that if you asked Israelis what they meant by "peace," I'm sure that many of them will trot out the usual laundry list of concessions that Palestinians still find categorically unacceptable.  "Peace," as it turns out, often means "victory, and on our terms."

      •  My claim (0+ / 0-)

        My claim was that Netanyahu was relatively unpopular and not representative of the Israeli people in general particularly about peace. The fact that he has a majority within a rather convoluted government structure does not change the fact that most Israelis disagree with him.

        And most polls for more than a decade show Israeli popular support for peace, though I did quote it at a high but that was largely because I wanted to highlight the year Netanyahu was elected.

        There is a disconnect between the Israeli government and the Israeli people. That would lead to the collapse of the current government if and only if there was a viable alternative, which there is not. That was my original point and as far as I can tell nothing you have said changes that. Was I unclear? If so perhaps the fault is mine that we are disagreeing. But the facts point to exactly what I am saying.

        FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes. I Had A Thought

        by mole333 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:30:21 AM PST

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        •  Define "peace." Be specific. (0+ / 0-)

          This isn't a terribly recent poll, but as far as the status of Jerusalem is concerned, it isn't promising.  I doubt Israeli attitudes have softened since then.

          Surely you will agree that some compromise on the "right of return" is not in the cards, nor would be the matter of allowing any Palestine control over its airspace, let alone its own armed forces.

          Peace is a lovely word, but there's an army of devils in the details.

          •  I would assume... (0+ / 0-)

            I would assume the status of Jerusalem is an equally hard stand on the Palestinian side. So shall we throw out their support of peace as well and say Hamas is representative of all Palestinians? Is your stand to equate Israel as Likud and Palestine as Hamas? That was what I was arguing against in the first place.

            Peace does not mean just what the Palestinians want...or just what the Israelis want. Nor is my definition of peace valid when it is Palestinians and Israelis who need to work that out. Are you suggesting neither side will compromise?

            Well, probably neither side WILL compromise as long as Hamas and Likud are in power and no strong opposition exists. But again, I am willing to bet a majority of Israelis and a majority of Palestinians are willing to see compromise but I have not seen stats on that. In this case that is just my opinion.

            FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes. I Had A Thought

            by mole333 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:10:42 AM PST

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            •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
              So shall we throw out their support of peace as well and say Hamas is representative of all Palestinians? Is your stand to equate Israel as Likud and Palestine as Hamas?
              Umm, no, I don't see how that follows from what I said.  Any Palestinian's insistence on a piece of Jerusalem doesn't automatically make him Hamas.
              Are you suggesting neither side will compromise?
              Not quite.  What I'm suggesting is that Israel's willingness to compromise is severely limited (and why shouldn't it be? She regards herself as the victorious party!) and that there's no degree of compromising on Palestine's part, short of near-unconditional-surrender terms, that will satisfy Israel.

              You keep on harping on "Hamas and Likud."  But you stubbornly ignore that the PA's much more obliging stance receives no Israeli response whatsoever, and that there's trivial difference between Likud and what's left of Labor, to say nothing of Kadima, when it comes to dictating terms to the Palestinians.

              •  Again... (0+ / 0-)

                Again, you seem to be using many of my exact points to disagree with those same points.

                Any Palestinian's insistence on a piece of Jerusalem doesn't automatically make him Hamas.
                Same goes with Israelis vis a vis Likud. Again, I have been arguing AGAINST these exact equivalences from the beginning and my point is Likud does NOT represent your average Israeli any more than Hamas represents the average Palestinian. Which is what you seem to be arguing at least vis a bis Palestinians and Hamas. I harp on these because that was my point from the start.

                You then go on to cite the Israeli governments stand regarding compromise when I continue to differentiate between the government's stand and the popular stand since that was my initial point. My calling the Likud stand "insane" and war mongering implies I don't think they will compromise whatever the average Israeli thinks. You seem to be arguing against my point using the exact point I am making.

                You say I ignore the West Bank and yet I have specifically agreed with you on that exact point.

                Regarding Likud vs the opposition, again, my point has always been that Israel (and Palestine) LACKS a viable opposition to its extremist government.

                My positions have not shifted yet you now seem (from what I can tell) to be agreeing with almost everything I have been trying to say that seemed to elicit such disagreement from you.

                FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes. I Had A Thought

                by mole333 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:48:42 AM PST

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                •  Well, we'll just have to wait and see (0+ / 0-)

                  how Israelis vote come January, won't we?  

                  In any case, you should really quit blaming Israel's continued rightward tilt on the absence of effective left-wing politicians.  Effective left-wing politicans would hardly make a difference on I/P (although they might in several Bibinomics-related matters).  The demographic shifts in Israel make that rightward tilt inexorable; surely you know that.  

                  Ultimately you're right that one shouldn't use "Likud" as shorthand for Israel's Palestinian policy -- but only because, with time, that policy might be better shorthanded as Shas.

                  •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                    I don't see January as significant because a.) the left STILL has no leadership and probably won't for some time to come, and b.) Hamas has handed Netanyahu exactly what he wanted by upping the rocket attacks.

                    The vast majority of Israelis I know are left leaning (though you are right, when the rockets fly they waver) and detest the likes of Shas. Representative sampling? No. But also not a tiny sampling. But I think the fact that the lean to the right is not inevitable is that a left wing plank that has long been blocked by the right, removing exemption of the religious extremists from military service, has been shot down. I think you are not seeing what a difference it would make to have someone emerge on the left as a real leader. Having no one to rally behind demoralizes just about every Israeli I know. The only time they were excited was during those protests (was it last year already?). They have lost faith in Labor, their default, and have no one else to back. I don't even know how many of them still vote, though they should. I should note that none of my connections are settlers and none are religious extremists. Both of those are not as strong as you think, but they ARE protected by the system in a way that exaggerates their influence. And that is resented by a lot of average Israelis, but unless that dissatisfaction towards the right can be harnessed by an effective leader, the left feels powerless...which of course re-enforces the right.

                    If things were trending so solidly Shas, the religious extremist Jews would still be exempt from military service (though of course if January goes more right, as it may well given what I note above, the exemption may well be reinstated).

                    FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes. I Had A Thought

                    by mole333 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 10:32:31 AM PST

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