Skip to main content

View Diary: The Breaking Dawn murder plot and our love affair with guns (115 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Some of those suicides are military personnel (0+ / 0-)

    You are correct that a large portion of those deaths due to gunshot injury are self-inflicted.  Tho' you wish to suggest such deaths don't matter, those deaths are still due to guns, and show clearly how dangerous guns are.

    That's why I include the figure 100,000+ Americans suffering gunshot injuries every year: to show the horrifically high numbers of Americans shot every year even when self-inflicted shootings are dis-counted (rare is the person who intentionally shoots him/herself non-fatally).

    A significant portion of those self-inflicted fatal gunshot injuries occur among military personnel; both active duty and veterans.  Tut, tut for you for dis-counting and ignoring the needs of our military personnel so you can play with your guns without interruption.    

    There is no getting around it: guns are lethally dangerous and a significant cause of morbidity and mortality in America.

    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:22:13 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Who said suicides don't matter? (5+ / 0-)

      Oh, right -- no one.

      You've tried this tactic before, and it's as dishonest now as it was dishonest then.

      Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

      by theatre goon on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 01:15:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Guns kill 30,000+ Americans every year (0+ / 0-)

        Good.  So we are all in agreement: guns (and gun onwers) kill 30,000+ Americans every year.

        Next time PavePusher or any other gun enthusiast disputes the fact that there are 30,000+ fatal gun injuries every year in America (or tries to say those deaths are not murders and therefore no big deal), I will be sure to tell them that Theatre Goon recognizes the essential truth that 30,000+ Americans are killed every year by guns.

        "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

        by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 06:21:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Suicide by definition is not murder. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, rockhound

          Guns don't kill anybody by the way. People do.

          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

          by KVoimakas on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:27:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Suicide is suicide; murder is homicide (0+ / 0-)

            The law recognizes 4 different "manner of death": natural, accidental, homicide, and suicide.

            Many states have laws prohibiting suicide as the intentional taking of a life.  Tho' for obvious reasons, few people are ever prosecuted for an act of suicide.

            It is technically incorrect to say suicide is not "murder".  Suicide is indeed the intentional taking of a life, which is how most people define "murder".  BUT clearly, suicide is not homicide, under the legal definitions of the terms.

            Having said all that, I have NEVER claimed that suicide is anything other than suicide.  

            And I agree with you: guns don't kill people - people with guns kill people.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:17:15 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Again, who said... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KVoimakas, rockhound

          ...that suicides are "no big deal?"

          Again, no one.

          Once again, you are being blatantly dishonest by attributing that stance to those who do not take it.

          If you have to resort to such dishonest tactics to support your own stance, perhaps it is time to take a harder look at that stance.  Personally, I think that any stance that must be supported with such tactics is not worth holding -- apparently, you feel differently.

          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

          by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:37:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good - we are all in agreement (0+ / 0-)

            Good.  So we are all in agreement: guns (and gun onwers) kill 30,000+ Americans every year.

            And every one of those deaths is important and significant and needless and preventable.

            I am glad we can all agree on those important points.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:25:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's just too bad... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rockhound, KVoimakas

              ...that you insist on being so blatantly dishonest in the rest of your arguments.

              If you wouldn't do that, you might get somewhere.

              I note that you have yet to defend any of the falsehoods that you have here presented.  I can only assume that this is because you know that you can't.

              I also have to applaud the great personal courage you are displaying by making these false statements in a thread that has largely been dead for at least a couple of days now.

              Really, impressive stuff.

              Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

              by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:33:51 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Facts; not falsehoods (0+ / 0-)

                What I present are the demonstrable facts: every year in America, over 100,000 people suffer a gunshot injury, and over 30,000 people die as a result of those gunshot injuries.  This is a open and shut fact, which you have yet to acknowledge in print.

                I have made no false statements.  If you wish to claim I have made false statements, please quote verbatim any statement I have made that you think is false.

                "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:16:42 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's pretty simple stuff. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rockhound, KVoimakas
                  Tho' you wish to suggest such deaths don't matter, those deaths are still due to guns, and show clearly how dangerous guns are.
                  No one suggested that suicides don't matter -- therefore, this statement is a falsehood.
                  Tut, tut for you for dis-counting and ignoring the needs of our military personnel so you can play with your guns without interruption.
                     
                  No one discounted the needs of military personal, nor, even if they had, did they do it for the reason you attribute to them.  Therefore, this statement is a falsehood.
                  Next time PavePusher or any other gun enthusiast disputes the fact that there are 30,000+ fatal gun injuries every year in America (or tries to say those deaths are not murders and therefore no big deal)...
                  No one disputed the total numbers, nor did they try to say those deaths were "no big deal."  Therefore, this statement is a falsehood.
                  And gun enthusiasts support in word and deed the killing of Americans for the profits of the gun industry.
                  This is complete fantasy -- you not only make the false assertion that the firearm industry is based upon murder, but that those who engage in a certain activity support the killing of human beings.  Therefore, this statement is a falsehood.

                  I could go on, but you get my point -- when you post a statement that is not true, it is false.  Very straightforward.

                  Of course, I'm fairly certain that you know the difference between a true statement and a false one.  You just like to play this little game of yours.

                  I do hope that, for once, you can be honest and explain what it is that you get out of it.  Really.  I'm curious.

                  Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                  by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:11:50 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  False statements vs. difference of opinion (0+ / 0-)

                    So PavePusher makes a statement:

                    P.S. "and 30,000+ of thos injuries are fatal" Over half of them suicides, although you are clearly attempting to pass them off as murders.
                    The thing is neither you nor I can know exactly and with any certainty what is in PavePusher's mind when he wrote that statement.  We only have the words in print.

                    To me, those words indicate PavePusher is seeking to minimize or "disc-count" the number of Americans killed by gunshot every year.  To you, PavePusher has some other meaning in mind with that statement.  It is not FALSE for me to say PavePusher means to minimize or "dis-count" the number of Americans killed by gunshot every year: that is my opinion about his statement.  By the same token, it is not false for you to ascribe some other meaning to PavePusher's statement, because that is your opinion of PavePusher's meaning.

                    I am not guilty of making a false statement, I am only guilty of having a different opinion of PavePusher's meaning from your opinion of that meaning.  

                    Don't bother asking PavePusher to come and take your side of this arguement.  Some time has elapsed since PavePusher made that statement, and his recollection of his frame of mind at that time is likely to suffer.  In addition, PavePusher has a partisan bias in ths discussion of guns and gun deaths and any statements he makes now are likely to reflect that bias.

                    (Tho' I myself am kinda interested to know what he meant with that original statement, because he references "attempting to pass them off as murders", and no where in the comment to which he is responding to do I mention murders.)

                    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:58:26 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, you kinda missed the point. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rockhound, KVoimakas

                      Purposefully, I suspect -- but that's a different matter.

                      You stated that, for instance, PavePusher said something that he did not say.

                      That is not a matter of opinion -- that is a fact.

                      He did not make the statements that you attributed to him.

                      That makes your statement false.

                      You can try to spin it all you like, but it is still the case that you have, once again, made numerous false statements in this thread.

                      Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                      by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:15:53 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Check wording carefully (0+ / 0-)

                        From the comment you quoted above:

                        Tho' you wish to suggest such deaths don't matter, those deaths are still due to guns, and show clearly how dangerous guns are.
                        Notice I did not say PavePusher wrote or said anything; I said "you wish to suggest...".  Very different.

                        You give an overly broad meaning to the word "falsehood".

                        Now I will quote you:
                        ...you not only make the false assertion that the firearm industry is based upon murder, but that those who engage in a certain activity support the killing of human beings.  Therefore, this statement is a falsehood.

                        NO!!   I DO NOT say the firearm industry is based on murder: I say the firearm industry MAKES A PROFIT from every person shot.  I DO NOT say that gun enthusiasts support the killing of humans: I say gun enthusiasts SUPPORT the killing of Americans for the profits of the gun industry.  AND, I have detailed (above) exactly how that support is manifested by gun enthusiasts.  Please pay close attention to the words I wrote.

                        If you would like to claim that gun enthusiasts oppose gunshot injuries and deaths, maybe you should describe some concrete examples of what gun enthusiasts are doing to reduce gunshot injuries and deaths.  then we can talk about those concrete actions and not abstract ideas.  This would held bring the conversation back to reality.

                        "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                        by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:46:03 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Meh. Unimpressive. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          KVoimakas

                          You've been caught in falsehoods and are now desperately trying to spin them into something they are not.

                          I provided exactly what you asked for, and now you can't admit that you've been caught out.

                          Typical.

                          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                          by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:05:07 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It's really very simple (0+ / 0-)

                            It is really very simple: The CDC tells us that every year ovr 100,000 Americans suffer a gunshot injury, and that over 30,000 of gunshot injuries result in death.

                            One can either face facts and acknowledge the horrible reality those statistics, or one can ignore or run away from that reality.

                            You have said you agree that those statistics are correct, a pretty brave position to take among gun enthusiasts I am sure (I'm guessing you'll get a lot of dirty looks if you bring up the subject with your buddies at the firing range - ever wonder why that is?).

                            Everything else in this discussion is window-dressing.

                            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:18:35 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, not at all. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, KVoimakas

                            At this point, we are discussing your falsehoods -- the fact that you attribute to people statements that they have not made.

                            You are now trying to change the subject.

                            All you have to do to prove me wrong is to provide, for example, someone actually stating that suicides don't matter.

                            Not someone saying something else, and three paragraphs from you explaining what they really meant -- but the actual statement.

                            The reason that this is important is because facts are always important in any discussion.  If one participant in a discussion cannot keep their facts straight and intentionally misrepresents what others have said, then they are clearly not intending to engage in meaningful discussion.

                            You see, when you attribute these statements to people they have not, in fact, made, you are tarring them with taking a very distasteful stance that they have not taken.

                            This is dishonest and insulting.  Intentionally so, to judge from the fact that you do so repeatedly.  This is the sort of tactic that Rush Limbaugh engages in, and it is as dishonest and distasteful when you do it as it is when he does it.

                            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                            by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:34:46 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But I have made no falsehoods (0+ / 0-)

                            I have made no falsehoods.  

                            You and I have differences of opinions on the meaning of PavePusher's remarks.  And a difference of opinion is NOT a falsehood.

                            You and I are in agreement: 100,000+ Americans are shot every year, and 30,000+ of those shootings are fatal.

                            That reality stand no matter what you wish to say about me.

                            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:49:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ROFL (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, KVoimakas

                            I provide examples of you repeatedly posting outright falsehoods, and now you seek to lecture me on "reality."

                            Now that is some funny, funny stuff -- I can only think, at this point, that it must be intentional.  Some sort of performance art, in which you are trying to apply Republican tactics from a supposed Progressive standpoint.

                            It's still blatantly dishonest, but rather amusing, in an ironic sort of way.

                            Have a fantastic day -- but really, work on your material.  It's getting stale, even if you get an occasional chuckle now and then.

                            It's always best to have some kernel of truth in your lies -- it makes them harder to show for what they are.  You know, take a statement out of context or something, rather than making it up out of whole cloth.

                            Just my advice.

                            Cheers.

                            Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                            by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:58:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Slandering me won't change the facts (0+ / 0-)

                            The facts are these: 100,000+ Americans are shot every year, and 30,000+ of those shootings are fatal.

                            These facts are independent of you or I.  These facts are true no matter what you think or say about me.

                            And these facts are really no laghing matter.  Ask anyone who has ever been shot.

                            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 02:03:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Do you have a point? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon

      None of that is relevent to the topic.

      •  Here is my point: (0+ / 0-)

        Here is my point: the gun industry kills Americans for profit.  And gun enthusiasts support in word and deed the killing of Americans for the profits of the gun industry.

        "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

        by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 06:31:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So those hundreds of millions of firearms (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, rockhound

          in the citizens' hands are defective?

          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

          by KVoimakas on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:28:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting point... (0+ / 0-)

            That is an interesting question: are those hundreds of millions of guns defective?

            On the one hand, those hundreds of millions of guns cause on average over 100,000 gunshot injuries to Americans every year, with many fatalities.  Now, many people would say that ANY product that results in so many injuries and deaths MUST BE defective.  Indeed, were we talking about any other consumer product killing 30,000+ Americans every year, there would be a great public outcry and congress would jump into action to write laws to require the manufacturer make the product safer.

            On the other hand, guns are purposefully made to be lethally injurious.  Indeed, gun buyers want guns to be deadly: many people who buy guns especially want guns that can deliver the most devastating injury possible and can deal out such injuries to the largest possible number of people in the shortest possible amount of time.  The gun industry and the gun buying public would strongly resist any attempts to require guns to be less injurious and deadly.

            This makes me think that whether or not you believe guns are defective depends on which end of the gun barrell you are positioned.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:52:37 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  This is an outright lie. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KVoimakas, rockhound
          And gun enthusiasts support in word and deed the killing of Americans for the profits of the gun industry.
          There is no other way to describe this statement.

          You are attributing motives to others based on nothing but your own fantasies, and, as noted elsewhere, crafting stances for others that they simply do not take.

          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

          by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:39:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gun enthusiasts support death for profit (0+ / 0-)

            Gun enthusiasts support death for profit in word and deed.

            Every time a gun enthusiast says that there should be no restrictions on buying guns and ammo, they are supporting in word a gun industry that makes a profit on each and every person shot.

            Every time a gun enthusiast says there should be no restrictions on gun ownership or use, they are supporting in word a gun industry that makes a profit on each and every person shot.

            Every time a gun enthusiast buys a gun or ammo, they are contributing money to (supporting in deed) a gun  industry that makes a profit from each and every person shot.

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:05:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Repeating a lie... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rockhound, KVoimakas

              ...is still a lie.

              No matter how many times you make these false statements, they are still false.

              Now, of course, you are adding a new lie -- that anyone seriously states that there should be no restrictions of gun ownership or use.  No one takes this stance.

              These are simply more lies intended to paint those who disagree with you as something that they are not.

              In fact, I do not really think that you seriously believe any of the nonsense that you are here posting -- the statements are simply too ludicrous.

              You are, in my opinion, trolling for the sake of trolling, nothing more.

              Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

              by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:11:12 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are the one repeating a lie (0+ / 0-)

                Can I quote you?

                No matter how many times you make these false statements, they are still false.
                You are the one repeating a lie.  You are the one lying about your support for the gun industry which makes a profit on every person shot.

                I cannot control you, and if you want to continue lying, you are obviouslf free to do so.  But please, remember your own words:

                No matter how many times you make these false statements, they are still false.

                "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:21:27 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sure, quote me all you like. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rockhound, KVoimakas

                  However, you are the only one lying.

                  Me pointing out your lies?

                  Not a lie.

                  You making false statements as if they were true?

                  Lie.

                  Really, it's pretty straightforward stuff.

                  Seriously, though, try to be honest for a moment, it's doubtful anyone apart from myself will see your reply at this point.

                  What is it that you get out of this little game of yours?  I mean, really, you're clearly smart enough not to think that you're fooling anyone.  Do you think you're upsetting us?  It's clear that you wait until the thread is dead before you get into the really blatant, to the point of silly, lies.

                  Really, you're not angering anyone.  You're not even taking up that much time -- I can click on the listing of my replies and dispense with your latest round of silliness in like five minutes.  A short break I actually need when doing tedious paperwork.

                  That being the case, clearly you're not actually persuading anyone of anything.  We've got your number, we know you're just posting lies for the sake of it.

                  But, really, what do you get out of it?

                  Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                  by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:04:47 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Me pointing out your lies (0+ / 0-)

                    Me pointing out your lies - is not a lie.

                    I challenged you earlier:

                    If you wish to claim I have made false statements, please quote verbatim any statement I have made that you think is false.
                    I noticed that you have declined the opportunity to offer any quoted material as evidence of my lying.  OF COURSE, you have failed to identify any lies I said because I have said no lies.

                    If you wish to claim that my assertion that gun enthusiasts support in word and deed the gun industry making a profit from every person shot, the YOU WILL BE THE ONE MAKING A LIE, because the truth is, gun enthusiasts DO support in word and deed a gun industry which makes a profit from every person shot.  I have detailed above how exactly that support is manifested; and you have FAILED to offer ANY cogent argument showing how gun enthusiasts oppose the gun industry and the profits that industry makes on killing people.  

                    And here I will quote you, because you gave me permission to do so: No matter how many times you make these false statements, they are still false.

                    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:27:33 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah, I responded to that one. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      KVoimakas

                      I'll assume you missed it.

                      I guess you just couldn't bring yourself to answer my questions honestly.  I wasn't expecting that you'd have the courage to do so, but one can always hope.  It's really too bad that you can't bring yourself to join this discussion on a meaningful level.

                      Really, though, if you change your mind, I really am curious as to exactly why you enjoy engaging in this little game of yours.

                      Have a lovely day.

                      Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                      by theatre goon on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:50:45 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You and me: we are alike (0+ / 0-)

                        I play the same game that you do, and I enjoy it every bit as much as you, and probably for the same reasons.  The only difference is I come down on the anti-gun side, and you on the pro-gun side.  And just like you, my opinions about guns are strongly held

                        In a sense, we need each other to be the foil for our thoughts about guns.  And certainly if we agreed on guns, our discussions would be much shorter.

                        I even think it might be good for people with opposing views to share those views with each other, even if we don't agree.  I certainly have learned a great deal about guns and the various strong feelings that people have about their guns through these discussions.

                        If I don't talk to you before Thanksgiving, I wish you and your a great holiday.

                        "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                        by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 11:23:39 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site