Skip to main content

View Diary: I can no longer wholeheartedly support Israel (243 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Why do you find (9+ / 0-)

    the Warsaw Ghetto analogy problematic?  

    •  What.... are you fucking joking? Seriously? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mets102, livosh1, Lawrence

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:14:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Answer the question, why don't you? nt (9+ / 0-)

        Aren't you glad that the clueless won't get a chance to run the country again, just yet? Yeah. Me too.

        by LeftOfYou on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:27:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No seriously are you fucking joking???? (5+ / 0-)

          Let's see though which fucking stupid comparison would you like addressed. The idiotic notion that somehow the Israelis are like the Nazi's and the Palestinians like the Jews of Warsaw? Gee, I don't know... Perhaps in the fact that the Israelis are not carting people out of Gaza and sending them Death Camps or proposing to eliminate the entire population of Gaza.

          Let's see Gaza is the most densely populated place on Earth or one of them. YET after a week of fighting there are 100 dead and 750 wounded. In the Warsaw Ghetto the Nazi's systematically killed EVERYONE. Should we go with your history lesson or would you like to simply actually learn who and what the Nazi's were.

          OR PERHAPS you mean this asinine statements:

          There are many parallels between the actions of ghetto Jews in WWII and Palestinians today, up to and including kidnappings, killings, and bombings. In the days of the Holocaust, these actions were considered "heroic"; now they are merely "terroristic", thanks to the Israeli publicity machine.
          Holy shit... Seriously?????

          Gee, I didn't know that the Jews of WWII were SHELLING GERMAN CITIES, perhaps I missed the part where the Jews of WWII had sworn to wipe out all Germans from the face of the Earth. Perhaps you can point me to a place which shows where the Jews of Germany had declared that all Germany really shouldn't exist.

          You want me to keep going, or have you had enough.

          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

          by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:01:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Warsaw Ghetto Commander disagrees with you (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jj24, LeftOfYou, splintersawry
            •  Nice try... But where does it say Warsaw = Gaza (0+ / 0-)

              Oh right... it doesn't.

              HOWEVER, even if did.. Doesn't mean he was right.

              So again... Anorish, please tell me how the Israelis wiped out the Palestinian population of Gaza, carted off people there and put them in Death Camps or Forced Labor which led to death camps. Please tell me where you that. Because that is what the Warsaw ghetto was all about.

              Oh yeah, and tell me about the brave Hamasniks and all their progressive ways that they support the things that Edelman (who was a leftist) supports. Please enlighten us to just how Hamas, or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are really progressive organizations.

              "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

              by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 10:09:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  tough call (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DeadHead, jj24, LeftOfYou, splintersawry

                I can believe The last commander of the Warsaw Ghetto when he compares the two, or I can believe you who doesn't
                Care what he says, "after all he was a leftist" and claims that the comparison itself is out of bounds? The only context here is ongoing  dispossession and occupation, not Hamas or any other straw man.  So hyper sensitive to words, even when imagined, so oblivious to deeds, even in front of your eyes.  
                 

                •  Way to skip the questions completely (0+ / 0-)

                  Again....

                  In your link: But where does it say Warsaw = Gaza?

                  and:

                  So again... Anorish, please tell me how the Israelis wiped out the Palestinian population of Gaza, carted off people there and put them in Death Camps or Forced Labor which led to death camps. Please tell me where you that. Because that is what the Warsaw ghetto was all about.

                  Oh yeah, and tell me about the brave Hamasniks and all their progressive ways that they support the things that Edelman (who was a leftist) supports. Please enlighten us to just how Hamas, or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are really progressive organizations.

                  Anytime you want to address the conversation rather than just make silly statements that have no grounding in truth.... let me know... mmmkay?

                  "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                  by volleyboy1 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:38:23 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  You know volley.. (7+ / 0-)

        ..you would be better served taking a couple of minutes and sentences explaining why.   It shouldn't be hard to do as I've done it myself on a couple of occasions.   You could do a search and find why those comparisons are considered out of bounds by admin.

      •  Not Joking (0+ / 0-)

        Nothing funny about this.  Very interested to hear your thoughts.  

        •  See Above.. They are not my thoughts they are (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mets102, mahakali overdrive

          flat history. IF you don't know the difference between Gaza and Warsaw then you don't know history. Period. AND if you do know history and you still make that comparison then you are a liar or a stone racist/bigot.

          Only the Nazi's were the Nazi's... If Israel were anything like the Nazi's, Gaza wouldn't be there today and every Palestinian in both Gaza and the West Bank would be dead. Understand that.

          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

          by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:14:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  maybe you could use all caps. (4+ / 0-)

            from the history i know - and i know, really, a very general amount - there are comparisons to be made, sadly.

            no group "owns" oppression.. i'm sure cambodians, russians, rwandans, native americans, south africans would all argue any claim to unique and "ultimate depth" of pain from the nazi party.

            you want to argue that - because israel's just bombing gaza but not doing air raids, there's no comparison to warsaw?  haven't these situations, in both cases, involve the systematic and longterm dis-empowerment, even for the basics of human life?  aren't these both politically-created ghettos?  

            you shoot out accusations of racism for having other views than yours - seemingly.  you don't have the market on the truth; you have a bully pulpit from what i can see.  yell louder, scream harder, but that will a) not change facts; or b) change points of view.

            Romney in a landslide!

            by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:31:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe you could actually use Caps.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mets102

              You feel like actually addressing my points or do you simply feel like saying "Well I don't really understand the issue so instead I am going to whine about you using caps"?

              As for this:

              you want to argue that - because israel's just bombing gaza but not doing air raids, there's no comparison to warsaw?
              Really??? Really - that is your comeback? Do you actually know anything of the history of the Nazi's? Seriously? Do you think the Israelis are simply just destroying things in an attempt to wipe the Palestinian people from the face of the earth.

              Do you really think that the Israelis are operating Death camps like Aushwitz, or Treblinka, or Sorbibor and carting people from Gaza to those camps?

              The Nazi's were genocidal lunatics and the Warsaw Ghetto was a mere "way station" to the death of the Jews in Warsaw. You think somehow that compares to Gaza? Really?

              "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

              by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:48:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  really?????? seriously??????? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Russgirl, SomeStones, splintersawry

                just put me down as against whatever you're for.  maybe someday you can articulate your points without such disdain for others.

                Romney in a landslide!

                by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:20:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well ok then.... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mets102
                  just put me down as against whatever you're for.
                  Well I figured as much. I mean I oppose racism, prejudice, and bigotry of all kinds. Apparently you are in favor of all those things given your exact words. I am for truth, anti-propaganda and a reality based political philosophy. I can see from your comments that you are against all of that. So yeah, I can easily put you down as against those things. Thanks for confirming what I already knew.
                  maybe someday you can articulate your points without such disdain for others.
                  No.. bigots and ignorant fools deserve disdain. See, I don't respect those who harbor racist or bigoted thoughts. I see no reason to treat them with anything but disdain. Oh and that goes for the way I treat the racists on my side as well. I would just as soon not have them anywhere near my position and my commentary record proves it.

                  "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                  by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:49:17 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I have a piece by (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          angry marmot, Brecht

          Mark LeVine you might be interested in reading, on why Gaza, Warsaw Ghetto analogies are not valid.

          Gaza is no Warsaw Ghetto

    •  Here is.. (6+ / 0-)

      ..Meteor Blades on WG analogies.   At the time he was Community Moderator.   As far as I know that rule still holds and people who make them are subject to being Hr'd and perhaps banned.

      link

      You're wrong.. (7+ / 0-)

      ..Meteor Blades has stated Warsaw Ghetto analogies are not allowed here quite clearly.  Let's get that straight from the get go, because some have either forgotten or have decided to ignore that rule. See below:

       

       What I am not saying is that I think...
          ...everybody who has made that comment (or anybody who has) is anti-semitic. It has been, imo, mostly an attempt to say to supporters of Israel's Gaza policy: Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is?

          And it is oppressive and terrible.

          The problem is that the Warsaw Ghetto became another of the gateways to extermination. So to make the comparison is to say Gaza is a step before the ovens. And that is beyond the pale.
          Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 09, 2009 at 03:48:20 AM EST
          http://www.dailykos.com/....

          Israeli policy in Gaza is disgraceful ... ...but this continued use of the Warsaw Ghetto metaphor is ill-disguised code for Israel=Nazis. Stop it.

          Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 09, 2009 at 12:38:09 AM EST

      •  wow. i'm an MB fan, but - (3+ / 0-)

        Saying "Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is" to someone who supports Israel's Gaza policy is deemed anti-semitic??  and not just a pretty damn reasonable question?

        furthermore, was nazi oppression so special and unique, that it can never be repeated or even referred to?  there are clear steps down the oppression/extermination road... and plenty of governments, sadly, have engaged in it.  watching what i see, israel has been, and is on that road with its actions toward palestinians.  fuck, if their own citizens are free to say this, how are americans somehow banned from even surmising it?  the propagandic curtain here is inexplicable.

        i don't give a shit what you call me for thinking this.  it is an opinion that - i found out - 27% of liberals think, and 16% of dems think.  a minority, but certainly not a rarity.

        Romney in a landslide!

        by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:27:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Huh? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mahakali overdrive, Brecht
          Saying "Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is" to someone who supports Israel's Gaza policy is deemed anti-semitic??  and not just a pretty damn reasonable question?
          Did you read what he wrote??

          Listen,  I'm not calling you anything.  You asked a question and I attempted to give you the answer without insults and "screaming".

          The fact is though is that foks who continue to make Israel/Nazi, Israel/Holocaust analogies are going to be Hr'ed and bring a torrent of angry comments upon themselves,  and at the same time disrupt reasonable discussion.

          If you do not like the current (afaik) policy on those analogies I guess you could try the "help desk".

          Cheers

          •  i know you're not calling me anything. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RageKage

            i am just alarmed at what i read.  the "you" is anyone reading it.  

            i have been around long enough to know what to do if i don't like something here.  one way is to say so - no need to be condescending.  i really didn't mean anything toward you, however - just annoyed as hell at the fact of the inability for discourse.

            Romney in a landslide!

            by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:25:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Discourse (4+ / 0-)

              Believe me, and I've been around here a long time.   Very little will bring down the quality of discourse at this site and in particular in Israel/Palestine threads than making Nazi analogies.   I mean can't you see that in this thread alone?   Check a few others.

              •  i see a couple bullies crapping all over people - (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Karl Rover, James Kroeger, RageKage

                particularly volleyboy1.... and a couple others who are late to the "party" they like to create for sport.  why aren't they extracted from the conversation, when they are clearly the cause of the flame?  it's not the words - it's the goal of these people to shut down the conversation.

                other than that, not much - people who are somewhat calm.  i suppose i'm more vociferous than i should be lol.  i feel a little embarrassed for not understanding what to say, and having broken both rules.  and feeling really defensive about being thought of as anti-semitic for caring about palestinians here, when that's simply not the case.

                Romney in a landslide!

                by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:55:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  He's not bullying you (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1, auron renouille

                  He has every right to be upset.

                  And I had two relatives in concentration camps, one of whom survived the experience. I went on to study literatures of various oppressed people probably partially due to this, and have fought for social justice throughout my life (including for Palestinians). You need to understand how hurtful this history is. And one of those relatives of mine is still alive and still talks about this.

                  They baked people in ovens and turned their skin into lampshades, and they incinerated people in ovens until their charred bodies turned to ash so that no taint of their ethnic remains would ever dare pollute the Aryan bloodline again; they tried to ontologically exterminate Jews down to the atomic level. If they could have split the atoms of our cinder to reduce us yet one level further, they would have.

                  War is war. Genocide is genocide. Ethnic cleansing is as well.

                  That is something more systematic and paranoid then all of it. It is the wet dream of a serial killer placed into power -- quite literally. It's the fantasy of Anders Breivik with national backing. It is beyond all conception.

                  •  you're late to the party. (0+ / 0-)

                    my boyfriend's grandmother survived a camp.  doesn't give him carte blanche to be a dick.  gratefully, he doesn't think so either.  nor does he think this has anything at all to do with current israeli foreign policy, or support their far-right agenda.

                    war is happening.  oppression is happening.  israel is in the wrong, and they are carrying their own people into harms' way.  i hope we do not support them, this time.  and iran?  holy shit.

                    i've been inundated with the horrors of the holocaust since i was old enough to talk.  in fact, everyone in this country has.  it is part/parcel of growing up american.  then i woke up to the undeniable fact - that the horrors of the holocaust bear no resemblance, and give no carte blanche to the militaristic, neo-conservative, far-right regime in israel that runs itself into war with every single neighbor - including the systematic and brutal oppression of palestinians.  what is peres' wet dream?  netanyahu?  or cheney and the neocons here that love them?

                    Romney in a landslide!

                    by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:38:42 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  and he isn't bullying? laughable. (0+ / 0-)

                    Romney in a landslide!

                    by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:44:43 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Please read more carefully & think more thoroughly (3+ / 0-)

          Yes, I'm being condescending, I know. But you've earned it in this diary.

          Here's your best point:

          wow. i'm an MB fan, but Saying "Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is" to someone who supports Israel's Gaza policy is deemed anti-semitic??
          But MB actually said
          mostly an attempt to say to supporters of Israel's Gaza policy: Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is?

          And once you use the Nazis = Israel simile, it always becomes a failed attempt. To use an analogy, as soon as you tell a born again Christian that he kind of reminds you of Satan, he will be too upset to listen to anything else you say.

          furthermore, was nazi oppression so special and unique, that it can never be repeated or even referred to?
          To people who've lost parents, grandparents, whole branches of their families in the Holocaust, yes, if what you're after is meaningful debate. If what you really want is to make them furious, well sure, then the Nazis = Israel simile can be pretty effective.

          "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

          by Brecht on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:12:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  My grandmother and great-grandmother (4+ / 0-)

            My grandmother lived. FWIW.

            And the commenter told me I should brush it off and walk away...

            This is my lived reality. The stories of my grandmother's internment as a young girl, unsure how old, maybe ten, so not that young either but still innocent, being taken in Austria where she traveled with her mother, who was a musician on tour -- because they lived in the U.S., they felt safe. But they may not have been documented. It's unclear. I've gone through the files and seen various things said. And my grandmother, and her mother, Americans, were told Europe was tense for Jews and to leave. They boarded a train in Austria to take a boat back, I believe. Something fancy, if I recall. And jackbooted Nazis took them and tattooed them and intered them until my great-grandmother was too sick to recover, with my grandmother, a little girl, in a cage, watching her die, watching each day the men and women and children given soap... and never return. She talks in halts and lapses when she speaks of it, and she has a bomb shelter built still under her suburban U.S. home. She struggled with PTSD before they knew what it was, and when a plane would fly overhead, my dad said they would find her weeping and crouched under the sink or in the shelter outright. She was a very successful woman despite her situation (or perhaps due to it) with a Ph.D. who was the head of the school district. But she always suffered. When I visited her, my mom showed me how her spice cabinet was still filled with medication, a lazy susan of downers and then uppers and anti-depressants to cope with such a life. Such a fractured and horrible life.

            •  as to the "commenter", what are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

              i never said anything of the sort.

              letting others talk - if that's what you're referring to - does not equate to brushing off or walking away from your family's story.  i suspect you are not sincere.

              Romney in a landslide!

              by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:44:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  here's the problem: people like me don't (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            splintersawry

            have these discussions on a daily basis.  we're not disinformationists.  we're not propagandists.  we're just - people with thoughts and questions.  we don't gravitate to every I/P diary with the goal of shutting down conversation.

            to make nazi germany a sacrosanct, hallowed horror is the most perverted aspect of the current propaganda onslaught.  there have been literally millions of people, killed systematically by their own regimes, that would shout out to you if they could; and millions of their descendants to prove the pristinely unique horror of jewish suffering an incredibly insulting offense.

            people should not be bullied from voicing disapproval with the israeli government's killing and systematic oppression of other peoples, by way of labeling as anti-semitic by propagandists.  THAT has to be the first brick to topple, in my opinion, for meaningful debate.

            furious?  i'm furious that - even as palestinians are losing their homes, families and even lives, the main concern here is a couple bully's personal feelings, which determine whether or not we can talk about it.

            do you realize someone on this thread told me, that if/when israel depletes 70% of palestinians - THEN they would admit it's similar.  are you kidding me??  not to mention, the accusations of me personally ... no.  these landmines are designed to keep the discussion from taking place.  this needs to change.

            Romney in a landslide!

            by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:38:25 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I can see you're not shutting down conversation; (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jj24

              I just think you're caught up in a strong emotional reaction, and some of your thinking and arguing is very fuzzy.

              Still, I respect that you're attempting to debate reasonably. I know it can be very disconcerting when you feel that several posters are attacking you at once.

              I don't have time now to address all the points in your comment. I'll try to stop in again later.

              "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

              by Brecht on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:37:02 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  wow - thanks. (0+ / 0-)

                i couldn't bear to read your response earlier, b/c it was getting so bad.  i appreciate your taking the time to listen!!  thank you.  you are correct, i am trying to debate reasonably, without the attacks.

                calling my arguments "emotional" and "fuzzy" - somewhat disparaging, but what the hell.  nothing compared to others lol.  

                Romney in a landslide!

                by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 02:29:05 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  This is an ignorant question. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1

      3/4's of the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto died after being sent to extermination camps.

      It was one of the largest mass murders in the history of mankind....

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:10:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (150)
  • Community (65)
  • Elections (43)
  • Civil Rights (38)
  • Culture (32)
  • 2016 (32)
  • Baltimore (28)
  • Economy (27)
  • Texas (27)
  • Law (27)
  • Bernie Sanders (26)
  • Environment (26)
  • Hillary Clinton (24)
  • Labor (23)
  • Health Care (21)
  • Rescued (21)
  • Barack Obama (20)
  • Republicans (18)
  • International (18)
  • Freddie Gray (17)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site