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View Diary: I can no longer wholeheartedly support Israel (243 comments)

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  •  Here is.. (6+ / 0-)

    ..Meteor Blades on WG analogies.   At the time he was Community Moderator.   As far as I know that rule still holds and people who make them are subject to being Hr'd and perhaps banned.

    link

    You're wrong.. (7+ / 0-)

    ..Meteor Blades has stated Warsaw Ghetto analogies are not allowed here quite clearly.  Let's get that straight from the get go, because some have either forgotten or have decided to ignore that rule. See below:

     

     What I am not saying is that I think...
        ...everybody who has made that comment (or anybody who has) is anti-semitic. It has been, imo, mostly an attempt to say to supporters of Israel's Gaza policy: Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is?

        And it is oppressive and terrible.

        The problem is that the Warsaw Ghetto became another of the gateways to extermination. So to make the comparison is to say Gaza is a step before the ovens. And that is beyond the pale.
        Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 09, 2009 at 03:48:20 AM EST
        http://www.dailykos.com/....

        Israeli policy in Gaza is disgraceful ... ...but this continued use of the Warsaw Ghetto metaphor is ill-disguised code for Israel=Nazis. Stop it.

        Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 09, 2009 at 12:38:09 AM EST

    •  wow. i'm an MB fan, but - (3+ / 0-)

      Saying "Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is" to someone who supports Israel's Gaza policy is deemed anti-semitic??  and not just a pretty damn reasonable question?

      furthermore, was nazi oppression so special and unique, that it can never be repeated or even referred to?  there are clear steps down the oppression/extermination road... and plenty of governments, sadly, have engaged in it.  watching what i see, israel has been, and is on that road with its actions toward palestinians.  fuck, if their own citizens are free to say this, how are americans somehow banned from even surmising it?  the propagandic curtain here is inexplicable.

      i don't give a shit what you call me for thinking this.  it is an opinion that - i found out - 27% of liberals think, and 16% of dems think.  a minority, but certainly not a rarity.

      Romney in a landslide!

      by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:27:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Huh? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mahakali overdrive, Brecht
        Saying "Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is" to someone who supports Israel's Gaza policy is deemed anti-semitic??  and not just a pretty damn reasonable question?
        Did you read what he wrote??

        Listen,  I'm not calling you anything.  You asked a question and I attempted to give you the answer without insults and "screaming".

        The fact is though is that foks who continue to make Israel/Nazi, Israel/Holocaust analogies are going to be Hr'ed and bring a torrent of angry comments upon themselves,  and at the same time disrupt reasonable discussion.

        If you do not like the current (afaik) policy on those analogies I guess you could try the "help desk".

        Cheers

        •  i know you're not calling me anything. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RageKage

          i am just alarmed at what i read.  the "you" is anyone reading it.  

          i have been around long enough to know what to do if i don't like something here.  one way is to say so - no need to be condescending.  i really didn't mean anything toward you, however - just annoyed as hell at the fact of the inability for discourse.

          Romney in a landslide!

          by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:25:45 PM PST

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          •  Discourse (4+ / 0-)

            Believe me, and I've been around here a long time.   Very little will bring down the quality of discourse at this site and in particular in Israel/Palestine threads than making Nazi analogies.   I mean can't you see that in this thread alone?   Check a few others.

            •  i see a couple bullies crapping all over people - (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Karl Rover, James Kroeger, RageKage

              particularly volleyboy1.... and a couple others who are late to the "party" they like to create for sport.  why aren't they extracted from the conversation, when they are clearly the cause of the flame?  it's not the words - it's the goal of these people to shut down the conversation.

              other than that, not much - people who are somewhat calm.  i suppose i'm more vociferous than i should be lol.  i feel a little embarrassed for not understanding what to say, and having broken both rules.  and feeling really defensive about being thought of as anti-semitic for caring about palestinians here, when that's simply not the case.

              Romney in a landslide!

              by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:55:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  He's not bullying you (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                volleyboy1, auron renouille

                He has every right to be upset.

                And I had two relatives in concentration camps, one of whom survived the experience. I went on to study literatures of various oppressed people probably partially due to this, and have fought for social justice throughout my life (including for Palestinians). You need to understand how hurtful this history is. And one of those relatives of mine is still alive and still talks about this.

                They baked people in ovens and turned their skin into lampshades, and they incinerated people in ovens until their charred bodies turned to ash so that no taint of their ethnic remains would ever dare pollute the Aryan bloodline again; they tried to ontologically exterminate Jews down to the atomic level. If they could have split the atoms of our cinder to reduce us yet one level further, they would have.

                War is war. Genocide is genocide. Ethnic cleansing is as well.

                That is something more systematic and paranoid then all of it. It is the wet dream of a serial killer placed into power -- quite literally. It's the fantasy of Anders Breivik with national backing. It is beyond all conception.

                •  you're late to the party. (0+ / 0-)

                  my boyfriend's grandmother survived a camp.  doesn't give him carte blanche to be a dick.  gratefully, he doesn't think so either.  nor does he think this has anything at all to do with current israeli foreign policy, or support their far-right agenda.

                  war is happening.  oppression is happening.  israel is in the wrong, and they are carrying their own people into harms' way.  i hope we do not support them, this time.  and iran?  holy shit.

                  i've been inundated with the horrors of the holocaust since i was old enough to talk.  in fact, everyone in this country has.  it is part/parcel of growing up american.  then i woke up to the undeniable fact - that the horrors of the holocaust bear no resemblance, and give no carte blanche to the militaristic, neo-conservative, far-right regime in israel that runs itself into war with every single neighbor - including the systematic and brutal oppression of palestinians.  what is peres' wet dream?  netanyahu?  or cheney and the neocons here that love them?

                  Romney in a landslide!

                  by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:38:42 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  and he isn't bullying? laughable. (0+ / 0-)

                  Romney in a landslide!

                  by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:44:43 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Please read more carefully & think more thoroughly (3+ / 0-)

        Yes, I'm being condescending, I know. But you've earned it in this diary.

        Here's your best point:

        wow. i'm an MB fan, but Saying "Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is" to someone who supports Israel's Gaza policy is deemed anti-semitic??
        But MB actually said
        mostly an attempt to say to supporters of Israel's Gaza policy: Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is?

        And once you use the Nazis = Israel simile, it always becomes a failed attempt. To use an analogy, as soon as you tell a born again Christian that he kind of reminds you of Satan, he will be too upset to listen to anything else you say.

        furthermore, was nazi oppression so special and unique, that it can never be repeated or even referred to?
        To people who've lost parents, grandparents, whole branches of their families in the Holocaust, yes, if what you're after is meaningful debate. If what you really want is to make them furious, well sure, then the Nazis = Israel simile can be pretty effective.

        "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

        by Brecht on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:12:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  My grandmother and great-grandmother (4+ / 0-)

          My grandmother lived. FWIW.

          And the commenter told me I should brush it off and walk away...

          This is my lived reality. The stories of my grandmother's internment as a young girl, unsure how old, maybe ten, so not that young either but still innocent, being taken in Austria where she traveled with her mother, who was a musician on tour -- because they lived in the U.S., they felt safe. But they may not have been documented. It's unclear. I've gone through the files and seen various things said. And my grandmother, and her mother, Americans, were told Europe was tense for Jews and to leave. They boarded a train in Austria to take a boat back, I believe. Something fancy, if I recall. And jackbooted Nazis took them and tattooed them and intered them until my great-grandmother was too sick to recover, with my grandmother, a little girl, in a cage, watching her die, watching each day the men and women and children given soap... and never return. She talks in halts and lapses when she speaks of it, and she has a bomb shelter built still under her suburban U.S. home. She struggled with PTSD before they knew what it was, and when a plane would fly overhead, my dad said they would find her weeping and crouched under the sink or in the shelter outright. She was a very successful woman despite her situation (or perhaps due to it) with a Ph.D. who was the head of the school district. But she always suffered. When I visited her, my mom showed me how her spice cabinet was still filled with medication, a lazy susan of downers and then uppers and anti-depressants to cope with such a life. Such a fractured and horrible life.

          •  as to the "commenter", what are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

            i never said anything of the sort.

            letting others talk - if that's what you're referring to - does not equate to brushing off or walking away from your family's story.  i suspect you are not sincere.

            Romney in a landslide!

            by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:44:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  here's the problem: people like me don't (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          splintersawry

          have these discussions on a daily basis.  we're not disinformationists.  we're not propagandists.  we're just - people with thoughts and questions.  we don't gravitate to every I/P diary with the goal of shutting down conversation.

          to make nazi germany a sacrosanct, hallowed horror is the most perverted aspect of the current propaganda onslaught.  there have been literally millions of people, killed systematically by their own regimes, that would shout out to you if they could; and millions of their descendants to prove the pristinely unique horror of jewish suffering an incredibly insulting offense.

          people should not be bullied from voicing disapproval with the israeli government's killing and systematic oppression of other peoples, by way of labeling as anti-semitic by propagandists.  THAT has to be the first brick to topple, in my opinion, for meaningful debate.

          furious?  i'm furious that - even as palestinians are losing their homes, families and even lives, the main concern here is a couple bully's personal feelings, which determine whether or not we can talk about it.

          do you realize someone on this thread told me, that if/when israel depletes 70% of palestinians - THEN they would admit it's similar.  are you kidding me??  not to mention, the accusations of me personally ... no.  these landmines are designed to keep the discussion from taking place.  this needs to change.

          Romney in a landslide!

          by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:38:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I can see you're not shutting down conversation; (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jj24

            I just think you're caught up in a strong emotional reaction, and some of your thinking and arguing is very fuzzy.

            Still, I respect that you're attempting to debate reasonably. I know it can be very disconcerting when you feel that several posters are attacking you at once.

            I don't have time now to address all the points in your comment. I'll try to stop in again later.

            "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

            by Brecht on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:37:02 AM PST

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            •  wow - thanks. (0+ / 0-)

              i couldn't bear to read your response earlier, b/c it was getting so bad.  i appreciate your taking the time to listen!!  thank you.  you are correct, i am trying to debate reasonably, without the attacks.

              calling my arguments "emotional" and "fuzzy" - somewhat disparaging, but what the hell.  nothing compared to others lol.  

              Romney in a landslide!

              by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 02:29:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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