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View Diary: Why do so many folks here use the term "Old Testament" as code for barbarism? (265 comments)

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  •  The diarist accuses the RW fundies (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gustynpip, suesue, librarisingnsf

    of being anti-semites, however. Their understanding of jewishness might be flawed, but it isn't hostile. They're pro-Jewish for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that Israel is seen as the front line in the war against Islam, which wingers see as evil.

    I never liked you and I always will.

    by Ray Blake on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 05:15:04 PM PST

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    •  I am the diarist (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CroneWit

      I didn't accuse the RW fundies in broad brush of being anti-semites.  What I said was that before seeing the term used this way on DailyKos, the only people I have heard calling the OT a wicked book were anti-semites.  

      RW fundies usually say that the law is obsolete, not that it is wicked.  They often make an exception to the law being obsolete, when it's a matter of some law they want to make a fuss about (e.g. homosexual sex).   And they often don't understand the law, or twist it to having a Christian meaning.  

      But until recently, I hadn't heard anyone but anti-semites say that the law was actually wicked, e.g. that the Old Testament taught rape or genocide, and that we needed to wait for the New Testament to come along to get that out of our heads.

    •  They favor the Jews carrying out Revelations (0+ / 0-)

      They are interested in Jews most to the extent that the Revelation of John The Divine (one weird fucking book, that one) says that the Jews have a role in the End Times, which are always just around the corner for these Christian sects.  But believe you me, they have no particular interest or understanding of Jews beyond that for many of them.

      Jews just need to be around for the Anti-Christ to show up, for 144K of them to find Jesus before the End, and the rest of them to get harrowed to hell.

      If you call that pro-Jewish, well, you probably define the term differently than I learned back in the day.

      [I]t is totally not true that Mitt Romney strapped Paul Ryan to the top of a car and drove him to Canada. Stop spreading rumors! -- Gail Collins

      by mbayrob on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 10:55:10 PM PST

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      •  No, it goes further than that. (0+ / 0-)

        They support the state of Israel unequivocally, insist on Jerusalem as the capital, and increasingly revere the Jewish people as the chosen. Have you ever watched TBN? I read a huge disconnect between what you and Rob write and what Christians I personally know say and think.  

        I never liked you and I always will.

        by Ray Blake on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 11:03:23 PM PST

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        •  I grew up with Evangelicals and Mormons (0+ / 0-)

          who exactly are you talking to?

          Folks like Netanyahu, who did grad school in the Boston area, started cultivating these people back in the mid 1970s.  It's possible, up to a point.  But if you think these people are pro-Jewish, you aren't listening very well.

          And yes, I'm talking about TBN, Pat Robertson, and that crowd.  They like Jews in the abstract.  But not in person.  I grew up with these kinds of folks, and being interested in religion generally when I was in high school, I spent lots of time talking with them.  While I liked many of them personally (and respected the quality of their spiritual sides and some cases),  most of them were not ideologically friendly.  And they learned about "Jews" in their church, and not by having any knowledge of real, live Jews, or anything about Jews that has happened since the Crucifixion.

          They think we are "chosen" to have a particular role in their eschatology.  But they have no particular knowledge of Jews at a personal level, don't have much dealings with them, and are deeply ignorant of them by and large.

          There are people like Netanyahu who find these sorts of Christians useful.  Netanyahu is wrong about an awful lot of things.  But he's more wrong about this than most things.  These people may be "pro-Jewish", but with friends like that, well, you know how the saying goes.

          [I]t is totally not true that Mitt Romney strapped Paul Ryan to the top of a car and drove him to Canada. Stop spreading rumors! -- Gail Collins

          by mbayrob on Thu Nov 22, 2012 at 12:10:48 AM PST

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          •  You're basing your perceptions of Christians (0+ / 0-)

            on what was going on in the '70's? Jesus Christ. Things have changed. And no, I'm not talking about Pat Robertson. I'm talking about guys like John Hagee, the founder and Chairman of Christians United For Israel. You can claim he doesn't understand Judaism, if you like, but he's clearly pro-Israel, pro-"Old Testament", definitely not an anti-semite.

            I never liked you and I always will.

            by Ray Blake on Thu Nov 22, 2012 at 01:11:59 AM PST

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            •  Hagee is not a friend of Judaism (0+ / 0-)

              Here is a quote of Hagee:

              It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day.
              Here is another quote of Hagee:
              'And they the hunters should hunt them,' that will be the Jews. 'From every mountain and from every hill and from out of the holes of the rocks.' If that doesn't describe what Hitler did in the holocaust you can't see that.
              He is somewhat of an equal opportunity hater.  He thinks the holocaust was God's punishment to the Jews.  But yet he thinks that the Roman Catholic Church is cursed of God because it allied with Hitler!  (Don't try to reconcile all this into a single consistent picture -- you can't).  He thinks Katrina was a punishment to the homosexuals of New Orleans.  He thinks the US loses wars because we allow "Satan worshippers" in the military.

              Although he has on some occasions said that Jews can be saved, he has also said:

              If you live your life and don't confess your sins to God Almighty through the authority of Christ and His blood, I'm going to say this very plainly, you're going straight to hell with a nonstop ticket.
              There is nothing "pro-Old-Testament" about him.  Do you think he preaches "do not hurt the feelings of a stranger, for you were strangers in Egypt"???????  Do you think he preaches "do not withhold your hand against the poor"???

              The man is just an avalanche of hate.  Conservatives love him.

              •  Hey, I'm no fan of Hagee (0+ / 0-)

                and don't claim that he follows the OT on Jewish terms. Of course he doesn't, he's a fundamentalist Christian preacher. I'm sure you're aware that there's a lot of woe unto the Jews rhetoric in the OT, and a good portion of God kicking ass. I've always read being chosen as a mixed bag. Many Christian ministers lean heavily on the prophetic books, the source of much fire and brimstone preaching.

                Your quotes of Hagee quoting the book of Jeremiah are misleading. In those passages, God is once again threatening Judah with annihilation, so Hagee's interpretation isn't at all a statement of sympathy for Nazism, it's a warning to his followers of what can happen if you're disobedient to God. That's fire and brimstone. You disobey and God will crush you. It's a message that comes from the OT. Hagee's invocation of Hitler is offensive, as is his reference to Katrina, but he's drawing from the flood, the plague of locusts, and other OT disasters.

                Here's another statement from Hagee, straight from the Christians United for Israel site:

                We believe that the Jewish people have a right to live in their ancient land of Israel, and that the modern State of Israel is the fulfillment of this historic right.

                We maintain that there is no excuse for acts of terrorism against Israel and that Israel has the same right as every other nation to defend her citizens from such violent attacks.

                We pledge to stand with our brothers and sisters in Israel and to speak out on their behalf whenever and wherever necessary until the attacks stop and they are finally living in peace and security with their neighbors.

                I never liked you and I always will.

                by Ray Blake on Thu Nov 22, 2012 at 11:10:32 AM PST

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