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View Diary: Why do so many folks here use the term "Old Testament" as code for barbarism? (265 comments)

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  •  How do you explain Abraham arguing with God? (1+ / 0-)
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    CroneWit

    You wrote:

    Nor do I believe that Jews in the second century BCE thought arguing with God made you a good Jew.
    But they included in Genesis a story where Abraham did argue with God.  And in Exodus a story where Moses argued with God.

    And what about the midrash about how halacha is not decided in heaven, even if a voice comes down and rules against the majority?  Was that not fairly ancient?  How far do you think that is from original intent?

    •  Well i am not sure pleading for mercy... (0+ / 0-)

      is arguing. but that could be semantics so I will call it a toss up.

      And he did not 'argue' when told to sacrifice his own son.

      So though there may be examples of 'arguing' with God it is hardly a major theme one can pull from the OT as the basis of a founding principle.

      None the less it is open to interpretation which is one of the main problems of the Bible in that it contradicts itself enough one can argue many different views from it.

      So I will leave it as my opinion that the Bible does not give enough consistent examples for me to feel confident that its supportive/promoting arguing with god.

      Your opinion is as valid as mine though...

      Not only can a small group of dedicated people change the world, its the only thing that ever has.

      by fToRrEeEsSt on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 06:12:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The very name Yisroel (1+ / 0-)
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        Diamond Mind

        in Hebrew can mean "Strives with God", or  "one that struggled with the divine angel" (Josephus), "one who has prevailed with God" (Rashi).

        America—We built that!

        by Mokurai on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 10:18:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It can mean a lot of things... (0+ / 0-)

          but one must look at the context of time frame and who is doing the translating and when.

          It can also just mean descendant of Jacob.

          Remember Josephus comes to us in Greek not Hebrew so its all translation...

          Not only can a small group of dedicated people change the world, its the only thing that ever has.

          by fToRrEeEsSt on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 10:31:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're reasoning backwards. (0+ / 0-)

            "Israel" means "descendant of Jacob" because in the story God gives Jacob the new name of Israel.  And he got that name because he (in the story) wrestled with God's angel.

            And we don't see Torah only in translation.   In services, the Torah is read in the original.  We don't need Josephus to translate it into Greek and then read a translation from Greek to English.  

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