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  •  No, as a minority group, we are not going (4+ / 0-)

    to say that we should be LESS represented in Government. That makes no sense. It is not something we ought to advocate: less Jews in Government. Is that not what civil rights seeks to do, in no small part? In the United States? To support minorities toward obtaining stronger leadership roles, be they African-American, Asian, LGBT, Women, Muslim, or even Palestinian?

    I welcome more Jews into our Government. 82% of American Jews support a 2-state solution, for one thing. I can find the citation if needed, but I've offered it in the past few days.

    If the Israeli Government, and the Israeli lobbies in the U.S., are corrupt, this is its own problem. But it is NOT a problem of minority over-representation in the U.S. of Jewish people. Period.

    I am horrified every single day by what is happening to Palestinians, and with one fell swoop, I would do everything in my power to end this outrageous, inhumane situation. But the solution there hardly -- HARDLY -- lies with Jewish-American Governmental figures (although some of the lobby groups may be an issue, as all lobbyists do influence politics toward their own ends).

    This is not a matter of victimhood or survival. I'm no Zionist. I don't give a flying fuck about my "right of return" or whatever. And yes, I am Jewish as well. And I support two-states that find peace, and I don't like the lobbyists just like I don't like MOST lobbyists. But I don't like the call for LESS minority representation in Government, which is already white dominated (and I don't consider myself "white." I'm Middle Eastern in my view).

    I feel your diary presents a very strange view of things, I'm sorry to say. I am surprised by it. I know you've been through a tremendous deal of personal hardship yourself that I cannot begin to fathom. But this is just not acceptable, anymore than it would be acceptable to say that an African-American President is the core problem for why violence continues in the Congo or some tripe like that. Maybe you can persuade me otherwise, but the stereotyping is unacceptable here, and the cultural psychoanalysis is flat wrong -- particularly and again with 82% of U.S. Jews in support of a two-state solution; these aren't all twenty-two year olds.

    •  And by the way, I would equally (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kane in CA

      call for more Palestinian representation in our Government on the same note, just like I would more Muslim representation too.

      •  Only Palestinian American politicians I'm aware of (0+ / 0-)

        are the John Sununus, father and son. And I am very glad that they are both retired from politics. As should be everyone on dailykos.

      •  How far would you take this position? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mahakali overdrive

        If you advocate that every minority group should have more representation in Congress, there aren't enough representatives. And what about when you have members of minority groups running against one another?

        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

        by AaronInSanDiego on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 08:53:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  How far would I take this? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neon Mama, mithra

          Until the playing field is representative of the U.S. public as a whole, I suppose. We're a melting pot, and as such, I like to support as many non-majority persons as possible. There's no magic number here. And maybe I misread, as stated below, although I still don't understand how we are "overrepresented" in any way in the United States. I feel we are represented decently in places. But in many parts of the U.S., there are few Jewish people at all.

          •  The fact is that there are (0+ / 0-)

            a higher percentage of Jews in elected positions, at least at the federal level, than the percentage of Jews in the overall population of the country. I don't see that as a bad thing, certainly, but I don't see a need to call for electing more Jews either. If someone is Jewish and a good candidate, they should be supported. If they are Joe Lieberman or Eric Cantor, they shouldn't, IMO.

            "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

            by AaronInSanDiego on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:31:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Most are Democrats (0+ / 0-)

              some are openly gay. Most represent a lsmall number of states. Only one Jewish Senator is a woman. Only 2 Jews in Congress are Republicans. At least two (or more) are part of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

              •  That's mostly true, but (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JesseCW, Smoh, sfbob

                I'm not sure I understand what your point is.

                Most Jews are Democrats, so it's not unexpected that most of them in Congress are as well. I'm not going to advocate for more Republican Jews in Congress, or Republican anybody else.

                Most of the states without Jewish representatives are either small or have a smaller than average percentage of Jews among the population. Does it make sense to expect a Jewish representative in Montana? I'm not saying that there shouldn't be one, but I don't think it reflects badly on the state that there isn't. Perhaps you could say New Jersey should have one. Over 4% of New Jersey's population is Jewish, higher than the national average. If they had a Jewish representative, 7.6% of their delegation would be Jewish. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure that in itself would improve the quality of New Jersey's representation.

                There are two female Jewish senators (Feinstein and Boxer), about the same percentage as the number of women in the Senate as a whole. I do think there should be more women in government, as well as more men and women who are not anti-woman, because women have still not reached equality in this area, and because there is a problem with too much legislation that is detrimental to women.

                I don't think there are too many Jews in Congress or anywhere else. But I don't think that means there are not enough, either. And I also don't think there are too many Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Latinos, African-Americans, Native Americans, etc. But, there are a limited number of offices, so if there is more of one group, there will be less of another.

                I do think there needs to be more diversity in our government, but I don't that's just about the identities of candidates.

                "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 12:19:30 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  There are two (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mahakali overdrive, sfbob, volleyboy1

                women Jewish Senators. Barbara Boxer and Diane Feinstein. Not sure which one you didn't count.

    •  To be clear about my objection (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kane in CA

      it is to this language from the diary:

      I'm simply stating what some are afraid to say: Jews, who make up only 1.2% of the U.S. population, are (in my ranging experiences) disproportionately represented in social action and progressive endeavors in the United States.
      And
      For deep down, existentially, Jews fear one thing more than any other: being exterminated. And Israel is literally and emotionally entwined (inextricably) with such survival.

      And so many American Jews allow themselves to largely be ignorant of or ignore the plight of the Palestinians. Not out of malice. But out of an uber-sensitivity and hyper-focus on Jewish victimhood, on Jewish survival.

      •  But the paragraphs you cite (4+ / 0-)

        don't mention government, and don't advocate that the representation should be less.

        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

        by AaronInSanDiego on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 08:45:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ah, my presumption then (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kane in CA

          when saying that we are "disproportionately represented in social action," I did presume that meant in terms of our Governmental presence. Which is a better critique to make, I think, then to say we, as citizens, are disproportionately serving as activists? That never even crossed my mind.

          I don't think that there are too many Jewish activists either, and I also don't think that those Jewish activists who exist focus unduly on victimization and a fear of our ontological failure to survive. That seems really silly to me. I'm in my mid-late 30's. I don't feel victimized, nor do I feel like I'm going to be smited (smote?) out of existence by some harsh fist.

          Maybe I read the diary oddly? I don't quite see what this thing about victimization, hyper-sensitivity, and survival has to do with anything one way or another. And I don't like these stamps.

          •  I agree entirely (5+ / 0-)

            I find this bit of psychoanalysis:

            And so many American Jews allow themselves to largely be ignorant of or ignore the plight of the Palestinians. Not out of malice. But out of an uber-sensitivity and hyper-focus on Jewish victimhood, on Jewish survival.
            incredibly offensive. The claim here is that only enlightened Jews think differently. And the rest are are ignorant as a result of an inability to come to rational conclusions, blinded by hyper-sensitivy and victimhood.

            In a different context, these same accusations would be assailed here.

            •  I support a Palestinian State (4+ / 0-)

              and I believe what has happened is flatly atrocious. I have not minced words here, and my record on this is consistent. In addition, I have been an advocate/activist for anti-war, peace, and civil rights for most of my adult life in some capacity or other.

              And I don't like this sort of divisive rhetoric about Jewish people. Is it true that some Jewish people don't support a 2-State solution in the U.S.? Yes. 18% do not. Is that because they are thin-skinned, focused on their victimhood, and essentially being reactive to the Holocaust, which is what is embedded in this line of thinking? I think that's a broad brush to use toward people and falls into "blame the victim" mentality. People have political differences. I can't apply a broad-brush here. I think American Jews don't want to see anyone persecuted, to be honest. If anything, there may be a simple bit of remove from the situation in Israel for some. And like all people, others just don't believe the same things as other people do. There are a huge number of white people who definitely don't give a crap about Palestinians, or civil rights, or deaths, etc. so singling out "Jews" for this, from other Jews, it makes no sense to me to do that.

              But I did initially read it to mean Government (it was the bit about what I said, plus AIPAC, that made me think that, upon re-reading it).

          •  I didn't take the use of the word (14+ / 0-)

            "disproportionate" to be intended as a criticism, but rather a statement of pride that The Troubadour believes that Jews have been involved in social action in numbers greater than our percentage of the overall population.

            "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

            by AaronInSanDiego on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 09:38:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hm, that's possible (0+ / 0-)

              but it seemed like it was a condemnation. There's been a ton of talk lately about disproportionate responses lately in discussions of Israel and Palestine.

              If I did read this wrong, understand that there's good reason for that. A quick examination of the synonyms for "disproportionate" reveals, for entry #2 (the first is split between neutral and negative connotations):

              Main Entry:     inappropriate
              Part of Speech:     adjective
              Definition:     not proper, suitable
              Synonyms:     bad form, disproportionate , foot-in-mouth, garbage*, ill-fitted, ill-suited, ill-timed, improper, inapplicable, inapropos, incongruous, inconsonant, incorrect, indecorous, inept, irrelevant, left-field, malapropos, off*, out of line, out of place, tasteless, unbecoming, unbefitting, undue, unfit, unfitting, unmeet, unseasonable, unseemly, unsuitable, untimely, way off, wrong, wrong-number
              Antonyms:     appropriate, fitting, ok, proper, suitable
              As you can see, these words largely have a negative connotation to them.

              As a synonym,  a more neutral "unequal" is a bit lower down at entry #6, below a spate of neutral-negative uses.

              Sorry to play English teacher. I'm not chastising your read, just explaining why that would (understandably) read differently to some. Who knows? Maybe I've read it all wrong and in the wrong light. I believe the intention of the diary was quite good, FWIW.  

      •  MO, it seems you've taken this in a way that (8+ / 0-)

        it was not intended. I never mention government involvement, and note Jews' representation in social action as a positive, not negative, element.

        I'm "THE" Troubadour," and not "Troubadour" without the article. We're different people here at DK :)

        by David Harris Gershon on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 05:25:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I had no idea that 82% of Jewish Americans want (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sydneyluv, sb, corvo, Smoh, mithra, 417els

      Israel and the US to recognize Palestine.

      I learn a lot here.

      "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

      by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 12:48:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  according to exit polls (8+ / 0-)
        Fully 82 percent of Jews support a two-state solution that ends the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem if it resulted in all Arab countries establishing full diplomatic ties with Israel. An equal number believe a two-state solution is needed to strengthen Israel security and ensure its Jewish democratic character, and that it is important for America’s national security interests.
        http://www.thejewishweek.com/...

        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:20:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I should note that (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Simplify, mahakali overdrive, sfbob

          this poll was conducted for J Street.

          "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:22:38 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Oh. An abstract "two state solution" at some (6+ / 0-)

          future date that might happen in some fuzzy sort of way.

          Palestinians have no right to self determination, but if every "Arab Country" will just establish diplomatic ties with Israel (occupied Golan Heights?  What occupied Golan Heights?) then maybe go ahead and say they will be allowed to have a state.  If they behave.  

          Not the actual recognition of two states.

          See, the two are completely different things.

          "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

          by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:35:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think a "two-state solution" (4+ / 0-)

            implies two actual states. Yes, that question was phrased in a conditional way. Nothing that says that a majority of Jews believe that "Palestinians have no right to self-determination". What do you think the percentage would be of non-Jewish Americans to the same question? (apart from the large percentage who would answer "don't care")

            "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:40:08 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There is a difference between paying (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo, Smoh

              lip service to supporting something at some fuzzy future date under some bizarre set of unrealistic conditions, and actually supporting something.

              I don't suspect that there's any large difference between American Jews and Americans in general on this issue.  I'm not the one who brought the poll to the table.

              A two state solution requires two states.  Those who claim one of those states only deserves recognition "if" don't actually support it at all.

              "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

              by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:47:43 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I brought up the poll to show the (3+ / 0-)

                evidence for the number that you questioned. I suspect that if they had framed the question to your satisfaction, the number would have been lower, as it has been in other surveys.

                "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:56:02 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Setting aside all other issues - (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sydneyluv, corvo, Smoh

                  You do understand the difference between "Do you support a two state solution"

                  and

                  "would you support a two state solution in this rather silly fantasy world we've concocted for purposes of this poll"

                  right?

                  I'm really not just talking semantics when I say that one cannot simultaneously argue that Palestinians are a people with a right to form a state in their own homeland....and argue that Israel and the US should deny them that right until they agree to a list of conditions.

                  My whole point was to point out the difference between supporting a Palestinian right to recognition of their State, and supporting efforts to extort Palestinians by denying them basic civil rights.

                  "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

                  by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:03:31 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Supporting a Palestinian state (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mithra

                    implies that the US and Israel should recognize that state when it is established. It doesn't necessarily imply that the Palestinians have the right to the recognition of their state before it is established. In order for it to be established, there has to be compromise, and there will be conditions.

                    "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                    by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:10:01 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It has been established. 2/3rds of the world (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sb, corvo, Smoh

                      has recognized it.  It is currently occupied by Israel.

                      "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

                      by JesseCW on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:12:52 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Recognition by (4+ / 0-)

                        a majority of countries is only part of what's necessary to establish an actual state. Israel has to end the occupation of the areas that will be part of the state, and there will need to be negotiation about at least some of the existing settlements, regardless of their legality, or lack thereof, in the first place.

                        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:34:33 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

        •  What about that "if" clause? (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          isabelle hayes, corvo, Smoh, letsgetreal
          Fully 82 percent of Jews support a two-state solution that ends the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem if it resulted in all Arab countries establishing full diplomatic ties with Israel.
          Statehood for Palestinians should be recognized as a human right, without conditions, and certainly not dependent on what all Arab countries do with respect to full diplomatic ties with Israel, something not even under the control of Palestinians.

          “Social Security has nothing to do with balancing a budget or erasing or lowering the deficit.” -- Ronald Reagan, 1984 debate with Walter Mondale

          by RJDixon74135 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 02:58:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't see statehood itself as (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kane in CA, mithra

            a human right. It is a mechanism to hopefully protect human rights, but not itself a human right.

            "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 03:04:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  See the link to Zogby's poll below (0+ / 0-)

            It doesn't have that "if" clause.

            I'm not finding a lot of polls conducted otherwise in the U.S. but there's one other that I'm aware of; I just cannot begin to remember it's name, but it was a large poll. If I remember it, I'll repost it. I think it was more like 70%ish.

        •  Here, Zogby did a poll that is similar (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AaronInSanDiego, sfbob, volleyboy1

          And it has feedback from both Jewish Americans and Arab Americans:

          http://peacenow.org/...

          "Despite heightened tensions and the devastation of continued conflicts in the region, solid majorities of Arab Americans and Jewish Americans are united in their desire an end to the occupation and settlements, and for peace through a two-state solution," added James Zogby, President of the Arab American Institute.

          -cut-

          Almost all Jewish Americans (90%) and Arab Americans (96%) believe that Palestinians have a right to live in a secure and independent state of their own.

          So Zogby puts it at 90%. This was in 2007.

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