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View Diary: Walmart Employees Kill Another Alleged Shoplifter (256 comments)

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    •  what I'm seeing here are shoplifters (4+ / 0-)

      who had heart attacks after being apprehended. I wouldn't call that "killing". Walmart is so big that they probably apprehend thousands of thieves over the course of a year. Show me that the death rate of these people is much different than for apprehended shoplifters in general, and I will start to believe this story. But a few anecdotal stories of people who died based on obvious per-existing health issues? Sometimes people here attack walmart for things that make little sense, but are not subjected to any kind of scrutiny.

      •  No, that was only one who had a heart attack (21+ / 0-)

        while in a choke hold, from my reading of the articles.

        Several others were actually strangled to death.

        But as a doctor, I'd think the heart and being strangled are pretty tightly linked, so you can't really rule out that someone was being strangled to death just because their heart attack killed them first either.

        It wasn't as if the person had a heart attack while running away or had a heart attack because they were tense. They were being strangled while they had it.

        You portraying it otherwise seems awfully unethical for a so-called doctor, even going so far as to make up stuff about pre-existing conditions that you know nothing about.

        Should we call you Dr. Frist instead of just doc2?

        •  I'm no a so-called doctor, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          but how are we supposed to know if the person was really choked? Thats for a court to decide. But lets just assume that a company as large as walmart has its share of bad security guards. How does one or two homicides convince anyone here that walmart is any worse than any other store in the country? Maybe they are the best, given a handful of problems and their enormous size as a retailer. The point is, who knows? And if you dont know if they are the best or the worst, why attack them for it?

      •  Well, doc2 (5+ / 0-)

        Maybe you have a very different definition of the word "homicide".

        --- Keep Christian mythology out of science class! @cybersaur1

        by cybersaur on Mon Nov 26, 2012 at 05:13:59 PM PST

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      •  Well, obviously Walmart should just hire off (6+ / 0-)

        duty cops. Since cops can kill people at will without much hooplah. I mean it sucks that the guy died, but I definately can't support a the general presumption that if someone is stealing from you have no right to stop them.

        Companies obviously should have that policy to limit their liability though. As a juror, I wouldn't award anything unless I saw evidence of force above and beyond what was required to detain the person. If force sufficient to detain is what kills you, well, that's sad but too bad.

        •  I'm with you (7+ / 0-)

          What the Walmart people did was 100% wrong.  You can't beat a person to death for some petty crime.  However, the general attitude in these comments that it is ALWAYS wrong to physically stop a shoplifter is insane.  If you don't want to get tackled and knocked to the ground, then don't steal and then run away when you are caught.

          •  Opinions vary, but the "ALWAYS wrong" part (4+ / 0-)

            can be judged against a variety of benchmarks.  Wrong by store policy?  Wrong by local, state, and federal laws?  Or wrong by moral and ethical standards?

            It seems to me that morally and probably legally, it's fine for REASONABLE levels of force to be used against fleeing thieves (don't shoot them to death, please, it's not a capital crime), but that the POLICIES of most corporations forbid it because of the risk that the costs will exceed the benefits (especially when over-excited human guards may go well beyond "reasonable").

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Mon Nov 26, 2012 at 06:40:23 PM PST

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          •  Stealing from Wal Mart... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            ... should be rewarded.  

            Wal Mart is stealing from its workers across the globe.  Those workers in Bangladesh gave their lives in a fiery inferno like some kind of ritual sacrifice to the gods of consumerism and profit.  It's disgusting.  

            We should steal them right out of business.  

            If you'd care to engage in a discussion about why it is morally right -- indeed heroic -- to steal from Wal Mart and morally wrong for Wal Mart to kill in retaliation, I'd be happy to joust.

            •  "Property is theft." Proudhon (4+ / 0-)

              Once upon a time, I was amazed to find the kind of right-wing sentiments I'd expect on Red State voiced right here on progressive Daily Kos.  But no more.

              Why the hell do people who have such love for authority and the power of the rich call themselves "progressives?"

              Proudhon was right.  This love for property, which is what drives the Randians, is sick.

              •  You are right to point out (0+ / 0-)

                that there is a robust sentiment here in favor of what you might call "authority and the power of the rich "  and another might call "social stability and private property".  

                I love the history of communitarian movements like the early Diggers, and I quite see the point of your critique.

                On the other hand, liberals in the "love me love me I'm a liberal" Phil Oakes sense (from which I by no means exempt myself) are decidedly invested in the established social order.  And constitute the lion's share of the loyal voters and donors, much outweighing the influence of more progressive or utopian visions.  

                "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

                by lgmcp on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 08:18:41 AM PST

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            •  You've reached the point of absurdity. (0+ / 0-)

              4π^3 + π^2 + π

              by Boris49 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 at 08:15:52 AM PST

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          •  Wanna be cops aren't trained. (4+ / 0-)
            However, the general attitude in these comments that it is ALWAYS wrong to physically stop a shoplifter is insane.
            They're stoopid and they hurt people.  They should observe and report and let the professionals take over.  
        •  Look, if there were some data here (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          winsock, lgmcp

          that indicated that Walmart's death rate for its suspects was higher than industry average, or something like that, I'd be on board as to thinking they may have a problem. But that requires data, maybe a year's worth of data, or at least a month, from Walmart and lots of other companies. All this diary is about is a few anecdotal cases. There is no data with which we can make any conclusions whatsoever about how good a job Walmart does ensuring that their security guards are good. Maybe they are the best ever. Who the hell knows anything from the simple fact that a few dudes died? Do people here realize that Walmart has 9,000 stores?

          •  It's true, contextual data would be needed (2+ / 0-)
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            doc2, Sparhawk

            in order to extrapolate from "a few bad apples" into a conclusion of "another extra-evil policy from Walmart".  

            For instance in my hometown of Albuquerque, NM, police homicides ARE, statistically speaking, out of control.  In relation to other cities of our size, income distribution, crime rate, etc, in the last few years our cops have consistently killed WAY more suspects than their peers.  It's not just that there were some shootings -- it's that the shootings are STATISTICALLY too numerous to make ANY sense.   Ergo, there IS some evil afoot.

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Mon Nov 26, 2012 at 06:50:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  You are out of your mind (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kevskos, OutcastsAndCastoffs, Miggles
            Who the hell knows anything from the simple fact that a few dudes died?
            They died in the name of cheap plastic crap made by de facto slaves on the other side of the world, living in squalor beyond your imagination.

            They died at the hands of Wal Mart employees performing their job duties.

            These are facts. Data are irrelevant.  Utterly.  Irrelevant.  Either you actively seek to obfuscate the issue or you're just an idiot.  I hope it's the latter.

            •  All you know is that they died. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sparhawk, netop

              If the employee is responsible, all that means is that Walmart has a few bad employees. It does NOT tell you that Walmart has some policy that is more aggressive that appropriate. Any organization with 2.2 million employees is going to have some bad ones. That is all you can discern from such a tiny number of cases here.

              Let's face it, these days any diary with any bad info whatsoever about Walmart gets onto the rec list, and few people even question the substance of the rant. In this case, a company with 9,000 stores experiences a few shoplifter deaths. And people like you assume it must be some evil policy they have, without bothering to think through the math.

          •  Everyone who writes an anti-Walmart diary... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            should be required to do original research to develop a statistical case for their view.

            Makes sense to me.

            And all for free.

            You're hilarious, if irritating.

            •  Only if they want it to (0+ / 0-)

              mean something about Walmart. If not, it is just an anecdotal story, that tells us something about a couple of random employees in a sea of 2 million, but nothing at all about the corporation.  I am really surprised that so many here are so blinded by their hate of Walmart that they can't comprehend the concept of the Law of Large Numbers. If a person wants to write a diary that claims that a company that experiences a few deaths has a "culture of murder", and some people want to accept that, without question, that's fine. For some reason I thought I'd spend some time trying to help people out of their stupor a bit. Perhaps the stupor is deeper than I even imagined.

              •  You're always trying to help us out of... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                any objection to wealth and power wielded irresponsibly or even ruthlessly.  Your defense of authority is consistent, along with your pose as the great defender of "reality-based" reasoning.

                •  Only when it just isn't the case. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  I don't like the business practices of Walmart. But if someone trips at a Walmart that doesn't mean that they have a culture of tripping and if a few people have even been murdered by staff members that doesn't mean that the company has a bad security policy. Where did anybody post this policy? If there is a bad policy, why not post it? The Walmart employee handbook is not a secret document. There's no evidence in this diary of a bad policy, or unusual hiring practices, whatsoever. It's a giant store and maybe a couple of people have been killed by overzealous security guards. That's all we know. So when a bunch of you want to jump to all sorts of unsupported conclusions, it is not a pro-business thing to defend them. I'm approaching this a lot more rationally than you, clearly.

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