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View Diary: Fear and Loathing at Daily KOS (153 comments)

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  •  doc2, you may not have directed your comment (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cynndara, juca, BitterEnvy

    at me....

    But.... obviously I do comment, but I do not like the feeling of watching over my shoulder, so it most certainly has discouraged me.

    I am a researcher and one of the golden rules in research is that you try to 'think outside of the box' and keep on open mind to consider all possibilities to see what pieces fit into the puzzle.  It so goes against my grain not to consider all possibilities and have a discussion about the pros and cons of all possibilities, that it has dampened my enthusiasm.

    On the other hand, I do not want to engage with crackpots.  People need to present evidence and logic and even grounded opinion.  What I want is to freedom to consider all points of view, while viewing the evidence for all points of view.

    Not to be told by screaming people:  "you can't talk about that, its all conspiracy theory!" and then half the time it seems that those screaming loudest don't read that the commenter is asking for facts not asserting a conspiracy theory and that they don't understand the points in the discussion anyway.  It is discouraging to see such behavior rewarded and made the standard.

    So, its not about individuals.  Its about the tone set in the community by the banning of a discussion that I thought needed to be aired.

    It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. ~~Joseph Stalin

    by SeaTurtle on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 09:53:08 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  CT is CT is CT. It doesn't matter if (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Manny

      it is the JFK assassination, the moon landing, 911 truthers, or the 2004 election. For every CT, there are plenty of people who insist that we "consider all the possibilities". But if we want to have a community in which such idiotic discussions do not take place, the only way is to clearly articulate the rules against CT discussions, and then to punish those who flagrantly defy those rules. If you as a researcher wish to discuss the 2004 election "controversy", Kos has no problem with that whatsoever. Just don't do it here, that's all.

      •  it must be comfortable doc to live in such a (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cynndara, juca

        simple world, where you 'know' everything and everything is so black and white.

        CT is CT is CT.
        I would love to move to such a place, it would take away all the research and evaluating that I do daily.

        Who decides what is CT and by what formula? You still have not answered that question.

        Kos laid the parameters of what he considers as CT on this issue so functionally he has the right to define what he wants on his site, and as you said, I have a choice.  And what I am saying, I have made a choice to stay, but it has greatly dampened my enthusiasm in participating.

        That's all.  I daresay that the site will hardly miss my comments.  But it is a loss for me.

        It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. ~~Joseph Stalin

        by SeaTurtle on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 10:19:38 AM PST

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        •  You don't wish to hang here (0+ / 0-)

          because a tiny number of topics are deemed off-limits? You can openly talk about 99.99999% of topics here, but because you can't talk about voter fraud CT or any other CT that makes this site uninteresting to you? Come on, man.

          •  It is ridiculous (0+ / 0-)

            But to each his own.

            I'll ask you, did BradBlog shut down or something?

            •  I dont know what that is. (0+ / 0-)
              •  Heh (0+ / 0-)

                Asked the wrong guy then.

                Ohio fraud central back in the day.

                •  I believe we have just seen exactly... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SeaTurtle

                  ...what SeaTurtle is talking about.  I agree that, while I don't want to "engage with crackpots", I'd like to feel that we can discuss the facts of the 2004 election without fear of getting banned.  We have every reason to want evidence that our election process is fair, our votes protected.

                  What we have, is a few individuals who seem to be acting as the CT police--- they are almost worse than C-Theorists in that they feel free to spread misinformation on the other side of the argument without any fear of getting banned.  

                  Lets not make fun of people for wanting the facts.

                  •  I believe that you did not live it (0+ / 0-)

                    So do not understand the reason for the policy.

                    Brad Blog will have discussion on this.

                  •  yes, juca.... I am speaking in general (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BitterEnvy

                    I was not here in 2004 so did not see what happened and accept that Kos has the right to dictate the terms of membership.

                    That being said, it doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion about exactly what you are talking about, juca:

                    What we have, is a few individuals who seem to be acting as the CT police--- they are almost worse than C-Theorists in that they feel free to spread misinformation on the other side of the argument without any fear of getting banned.  

                    Lets not make fun of people for wanting the facts.

                    My main point is the general tone that has been set here as a result of the 'thought police', not just one event in itself.  Lets let Ohio go.
                    And what I am saying, I have made a choice to stay, but it has greatly dampened my enthusiasm in participating.

                    That's all.  I daresay that the site will hardly miss my comments.  But it is a loss for me.

                    The loss for me is that there really does seem to be an anti-scientific/rational/intellectual bent in SOME people who either skim an article/comment and don't understand what is being said, and just scream "CT, CT" and can't hear any other explanation.  And shut a conversation down.  This has happened often enough to me and others that it is very offputting.  

                    So, The CT Thought Police make it hard to really explore issues.  And now to be clear, I am not talking about Markos-Verboeten issues.

                    So, I have a right to say what I think about this and what I think the impact on this site has been by those who are all too ready to shout down another's opinion on this site.

                    It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. ~~Joseph Stalin

                    by SeaTurtle on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:15:23 PM PST

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                    •  Agreed. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      SeaTurtle

                      I think that most of us do understand the reason for the policy whether or not we were members in 2004. I'm glad there is a no CT policy here, but don't want to see reasonable discussions ended either.  Like you, I accept that drawing the line is Kos's call, certainly not mine.

                      If we want to see the credibility of Daily Kos protected, we will be disturbed by people who invent a conspiracy where there isn't one, but equally disturbed by people who claim that computer fraud in elections is impossible.  It isn't, and we need to pay attention to ensure that it does not ever happen.  I'm not comfortable with demonizing those who have tried to get to the bottom of what happened in 2004.  I feel great that anyone who might try something knows there are people watching.

                      Anyway,  SeaTurtle.  I hope to see you around in diaries on other topics!

                      •  thank you, juca (0+ / 0-)

                        hope to see you around as well.

                        It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. ~~Joseph Stalin

                        by SeaTurtle on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 03:49:41 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Well, the line is quite fuzzy. (0+ / 0-)

                        If you dare to mention something that might have required more than one person's involvement, there are posters who will immediately accuse you of CT [and I don't recall the topic, but it wasn't elections, or the other usual suspects].  

                        These posters think humans never work together on anything.

                        The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

                        by dfarrah on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 09:04:01 PM PST

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    •  If I understand you (0+ / 0-)

      unless you get to discuss CT, you are discouraged about talking about non-CT.

      That makes no sense to me, but hey, different strokes.

      Here's what I don't get, did Brad Blog close or something?

      •  Do you not recall that (0+ / 0-)

        people made fun of Margaret Colson [I think that was her name] when she talked about what was going on before Woodward and whomever broke the story?

        Do you not recall that people used to ridicule those who thought Reagan tried to sabotage Carter's efforts to free the hostages?

        Do you not recall how reporters have been ridiculed over the Iran-Contra arms-drugs connection?  

        Or did these all turn out to be CT after all?

        The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 09:07:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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