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  •  If it's wrong for China to claim Taiwan now, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annieli

    … it was always wrong to support Chiang Kai-Shek's invasion of the island (and slaughter of the people there — do a web search on "February 28, 1947").

    http://www.taiwandc.org/...

    The Kuomintang wiped out a generation of Formosan / Taiwanese leaders in the period following February 28, 1947. And right up until the early 1970s, the U.S. was right there along with them, insisting that this regime was China.

    If Taiwan is not China, why did it hold China's seat in the United Nations up through 1971?

    The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

    by lotlizard on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:14:08 PM PST

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    •  These are pointless and trivial arguments (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      taonow

      The only thing that matters is the opinion of the people of Taiwan today. How many of them actually want to be part of China the way that, say, Hong Kong is now? Very few -- I believe around five per cent.

      If the people of Taiwan ever decide by majority vote that they want to be another Chinese province, then there will be no arguing with them. But as of today, they haven't, which means that Chinese territorial claims on Taiwan are imperialism pure and simple.

      "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

      by sagesource on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:21:39 PM PST

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      •  oxymoron: the KMT and majority vote (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW
        The question of "Matsu and Quemoy" became an issue in the 1960 American Presidential election when Richard Nixon accused John F. Kennedy of being unwilling to commit to using nuclear weapons if the People's Republic of China invaded the Nationalist outposts.....The PRC fired around 450,000 shells at the Quemoy islands in the conflict. The shells have become a recyclable resource for steel for the local economy. Since the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis, Quemoy has become famous for its production of cleavers made from PRC bomb shells. A blacksmith in Quemoy generally produces 60 cleavers from one bomb shell and tourists often purchase Kinmen knives as souvenirs together with other local products.

        yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

        by annieli on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 01:45:42 PM PST

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      •  No — history counts. Consistency too. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annieli

        Facts and principles are important. Unless one simply wants to stir up resentment and hate against a particular country or ethnicity, for political convenience of the moment.

        Fact: to create today's Taiwan, mainlanders crushed and replaced the original people of Formosa. Mass murder still matters.

        Selective historical forgetfulness may be convenient, but it's unconvincing. So many disputes boil down to, "History doesn't count, except when (I say) it does."

        Legitimizing, rewarding, incentivizing crush-exterminate-replace is evil. Even as realpolitik, it's a recipe for things getting messed up and staying messed up for generations.

        The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

        by lotlizard on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 02:46:06 PM PST

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        •  HUH???? (0+ / 0-)

          "the original people of Formosa"? Who were they? the aboriginals??? the Chinese who came over 300 years before???

          Facts on the ground matter the most. Taiwan is a country. It has every prerequisite to be called a country (money, central bank, self government, military, ............) The only thing stopping the international recognition is the pigheadedness of Beijing. It is an international disgrace./

          There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

          by taonow on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:14:37 PM PST

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    •  Either way... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      taonow

      It doesn't appear to me that China has any claim to Taiwan.  

      The reason it held China's seat instead of China is because it's a different country.  Arguably the wrong country was recognized as being China, but that doesn't make China and Taiwan the same country.

      •  Taiwan officially calls itself "Republic of China" (0+ / 0-)

        … even today.

        All during the period it held China's seat, it claimed that it was China, and the U.S. agreed.

        It was a one-party dictatorship under the KMT. The rubber-stamp legislature allocated seats for all the mainland provinces, filled with KMT cronies (whose positions were permanent, elections not being possible in the places they purported to represent).

        Official maps that still show the ROC as all of China even include areas the People's Republic long since ceded to neighbors or otherwise gave up claim to.

        That's history. Those are the facts.

        Now, people and societies do change their minds over time. Certainly there is a case that can be made for independence and various alternative routes to it.

        The case just shouldn't be based on a "we have always been at war with Eastasia", down-the-memory-hole view of things that turns the true reality and history upside down and denies known facts.

        The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

        by lotlizard on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 03:27:18 PM PST

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        •  Case (0+ / 0-)

          ... how can you make any case ... except for international recognition?

          There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

          by taonow on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:15:35 PM PST

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          •  Fact: Taiwan situation is a result of a civil war. (0+ / 0-)

            KMT regime and Communists were not two countries fighting, they were parties to a civil war inside one country.

            Formally, it could be argued that Taipei and Beijing must first lay the technical state of "civil war within one country" to rest, before anything else can happen. No one else can change that status for them.

            Time alone doesn't make technical states of war or civil war go away — even if many years go by, eventually they have to be resolved diplomatically with some kind of treaty.

            For example, World War II ended in 1945. Yet the status of Germany wasn't fully settled until 1990–1991, when a treaty was finally signed by the two German states and the four victorious Allies.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

            by lotlizard on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 12:37:15 PM PST

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    •  What planet do you live on????? (0+ / 0-)

      Taiwan is an independent country. China has no right legally, or morally, to Taiwan. The people of Taiwan want no part of China. (if you allowed a free vote with no Chinese intimidation tactics)

      Interestingly letting Taiwanese go to the Mainland in the late 1980's resulted in an increase in support for independence as people saw for themselves that the KMT propaganda of the time was BS, and that Taiwan society was actually quite different. Now Chinese visiting Taiwan are seeing the same thing.

      China is only using a racist view of "Chineseness" to make its claim, something that we should abhor ... It would be like arguing that Canada and the US should be one country because they both have lots of white people.

      Taiwanese society has made remarkable progress since the KMT dictatorship finally ended. Unfortunately Chinese society has yet to make similar advances.

      There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

      by taonow on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 06:10:55 PM PST

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