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View Diary: Obama and Pelosi demand Boehner allow vote on Senate bill extending middle class tax cuts (147 comments)

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  •  And that's all we should do (21+ / 0-)

    Go over the cliff, pass the middle class tax cuts, and that's it. Move on to the next issue. The sequester cuts don't touch any of Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid, and the military takes 50% of the hit. There will be some pain in other discretionary programs, but the Big 3 are intact and overall the sequester is the best package of cuts we will ever get with a divided Congress.

    (-2.38, -3.28) Independent thinker

    by TrueBlueDem on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 03:40:43 PM PST

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    •  Amen. That Is Kind Of Where I Am Now (18+ / 0-)

      There will be some cuts that will hurt, but the most are DoD related. Look I am a military brat. I like we have a kick-ass military. I want it to stay that way. But our spending is so totally out of control I don't have words for it. And just about nobody, even those on our side, want to cut spending.

      This is almost like a once in generation chance to ask the DoD just to spend like a semi-drunk sailor on leave. Not a shit-faced drunk on leave with a company credit card.

      When opportunity calls pick up the phone and give it directions to your house.

      by webranding on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 03:50:42 PM PST

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      •  Better yet.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elwior
        This is almost like a once in generation chance to ask the DoD just to spend like a semi-drunk sailor on leave. Not a shit-faced drunk on leave with a company credit card.
        Aren't they (whomever THEY are) willing to do it?  They can speak out about why they support spending cuts and make McCain/Graham look like crybabies on cable television.

        And won't LIEberman be gone in the next session?  

    •  You can't "pass" a middle class tax cut (0+ / 0-)

      without Speaker Boehner's consent.

      You can pass it in the Senate -- that already happened.  But it doesn't become law unless Speaker Boehner lets it come up for a vote.  Which won't happen.  

      Really, people who think, "let's get past January 1 and then we'll just pass a new middle class tax cut" are not being realistic.  It doesn't happen unless Republicans in the House want it to happen.  They won't have to "vote against it" because -- just as has already happened -- it will never come up for a vote in the House.

    •  This is what Howard Dean appears to be saying. I (11+ / 0-)

      need to study it more.

      But, RedState reports Dean said on Morning Joe that the Republicans will never agree in negotiation to a deal as good as we can get with sequestration, which was an accident they did not expect to have to deal with.

      And, everyone their agrees with that -- they are not going to agree to reductions in military spending.

      Dean apparently pointed out the people on read the first few paragraphs of the CBO's scoring about a small recession but didn't get to the part that then talks about 5% economic growth due to small debt and balanced budget.

      In negotiation the $500 billion in cuts to defense will be replaced with cuts to social spending that Dean thinks is inferior.

      The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 04:20:06 PM PST

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      •  RedState article by streiff on Howard Dean's View (8+ / 0-)

        Howard Dean: Fiscal Cliff Is The Best Deal Progressives Will Get by streiff (a RedState front-pager)

        http://www.redstate.com/...

        This morning on MSNBC’s Morning Joe, Howard Dean was interviewed by Joe Scarborough, while presumably Mika Brzezinski cavorted on her desk in a miniskirt, on the “fiscal cliff negotiations.”

        HOWARD DEAN: I make the argument that going off the — as you call it the curb, I call it the slope, the press calls it the cliff, is actually the best deal progressive Democrats are going to get. And here’s why. One, we get the Clinton tax rates on everybody. Will it cause a problem? Yes. There will be a short recession, and it will be painful. But two, we get defense cuts. Republicans are never going to agree to that. And three, there are some human services cuts, which we’re not going to like. But it’s the least possible damage.

        Now what do we get in exchange? A serious down payment of the deficit. The Wall Street people, who wringing their hands of this, are really full of it because what they’re going to see is a big drop on Wall Street while all the hype comes and then it’s going to be roaring back because finally somebody has done something serious about the deficit.

        So, I think the fiscal curb, as you call it, is the best deal that progressive Democrats are going to get. And I think it’s the best deal in the long run, not the short run.

        Dean is exactly right. It is the best deal progressives will get and it is also the best deal conservatives will get. The point of a negotiation is that each side gives up something so that they both get a lot more of what they want. We did this when the current deal was cut. The deal was that we let the Bush tax rates expire, giving the Democrats their quick fix of taxes, and we got real cuts in spending. There is no outcome likely to arise in the next month that will improve that deal for either side.

        The current proposal by Obama is a joke leaving the GOP with only two choices: capitulate or walk away. There is no reason to think that Howard Dean holds an opinion outside the mainstream of Democrat thought, if they have no intention of negotiating then there is no reason for us to try.


        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 04:55:30 PM PST

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        •  According to the IMF and the G20 Nations (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HoundDog, victoria2dc

          The sequestered cuts as they stand will throw the world into recession. This is the position that Canada, Australia, and Mexico are taking, for example. If they get slammed, then we get slammed even worse. And the markets could become chaotic.

          There's a bigger picture here.


          A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

          by Pluto on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 07:45:36 PM PST

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          •  I need to study it more. I haven't even read the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pluto

            whole CBO scoring yet.  

            One side or the other or both will most likely cave before then.

            I'm trying to bolster Democratic confidence so the GOP caves first.  

            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

            by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 07:55:33 PM PST

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          •  I care about the USA and fixing our own mess... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pluto

            Not so much Canada, Australia and especially Mexico.   Our economy currently supports a huge number of their citizens, whom I happily embrace. However, the addition of the drug cartels to our "social expenditures" isn't even on the books as such.  Former Mexican President Fox's lobbying for pro-drug laws that helps the Mexican economy seems to be working out quite well for them.

            We need to think about the USA and let them take care of themselves.  Just my opinion.

            •  I understand. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              isabelle hayes

              And, believe me, I agree. We should bring our entire military apparatus home and stop terrorizing the world for free. If they want to be terrorized, they should pay us to keep doing it.

              And so forth.

              In the case of our trading partners, however, they are concerned that our abrupt budget cuts and tax hikes will cause us to buy less of their exports -- which means they will buy less of ours -- and more Americans will be out of work, which will depress our economy which will depress theirs.

              As for the drug cartels, they are run by our big banks, our intelligence agencies, and our defense contractors. It really has very little to do with Mexico, except for the opportunity to sell them weapons.

              Just my opinion, of course ;-)


              A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

              by Pluto on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 11:04:40 PM PST

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    •  I'm not sure I agree (0+ / 0-)

      While I do think we need to cut military spending I'm not sure it is worth 1:1 cuts with domestic spending.  I suppose we could make up for those cuts though if we somehow manage to get an infrastructure bill passed but I still think I'd rather see no cuts at all than 1:1 military and domestic cuts.

      "It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said." "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain

      by Quanta on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 09:27:37 AM PST

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