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View Diary: Obama and Pelosi demand Boehner allow vote on Senate bill extending middle class tax cuts (147 comments)

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  •  Good points. The CBOs estimate is that (22+ / 0-)

    going off the "fiscal cliff" might cause a short-term mild recession but after that is actually good for the economy leading to 5% growth rates in GDP after 2016 due to the better balanced budgets and less debt.

    But, if the GOP would cooperate we should be able to balance the budget in a more graceful, less harmful way.

    At RedState they think we liberals do not care, or understand the undesirable consequences of escalating debt. Despite the fact it was Democrats that balanced the budget under Clinton (they take credit for that) and Bush which destroyed it.

    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

    by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 04:12:14 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Frankly (20+ / 0-)

      I do not give two shits or a good goddamn what anyone at RedState "thinks".

      It is time to #Occupy Media.

      by lunachickie on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 05:21:21 PM PST

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      •  I understand and empathize lunachickie. One (13+ / 0-)

        of the reasons I'm trying to better understand the many perspectives over there is that we only need to convince 10% of the House Republicans to break rank with Boehner to win this discharge petition.

        And, if we make serious efforts it strengthens our bargaining power as the GOP sees it could happen.

        Or, even more likely we convince Boehner to release the GOP to "vote their conscious" (helping him save face from a loss of power.)  

        Sufficient numbers already do no want to fight against us on the middle class tax cuts, or even argue for $1 trillion plus cut to "entitlement spending," which will be a disaster for them in 2014 to indicate to me that we have a plausible chance of winning this battle if we really push for it.

        Sun Tze said "the general who better knows his enemy is the general that wins the battle."  

        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 07:23:52 PM PST

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        •  Tzu not Tze (0+ / 0-)

          Sorry, my spelling in Chinese is almost as bad as it is in English.  

          The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 07:49:47 PM PST

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        •  HoundDog.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HoundDog, lunachickie
          Sun Tze said "the general who better knows his enemy is the general that wins the battle."
          Agree but... one who is of clear mind, strong will and love for what's good for others, and in this case the entire country and the world's economy, will be supported by the spiritual forces/energy of the "will to good" and the law of cause and effect.  

          Now if that doesn't make sense to you let's try law of attraction or common sense!

          •  You are quite an optimist victoria. For a moment I (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elginblt, StrayCat

            thought you might be my girlfriend from my first year at Cornell who left to join the Transcendental Meditation University out in Iowa and was very compelling when she described how one can naturally align oneself with natural spiritual forces and energies.

            I also left Cornell and ended up spending 15 years at MIT as a Research Associate and instructor teaching systems thinking, computer simulation of social systems where we taught people to analyze and create more robust policies and strategies and test them against long chains of cause and effect.  

            So what you are saying makes a lot of sense to me. We all would benefit greatly from spending more time trying to help each other better understand, create, and and improve our common good, at every level.

            One odd feeling I had yesterday on that RedState site was the strongest thinkers there also perceive themselves as trying to achieve the common good against the lack of understanding a self-serving impulses to give away money we cannot afford to our constituencies.  

            When you spoke upstream of editing this post to see if I could publish more broadly, one of edits I was thinking about early today, was to shift from adversarial mode to more of a facilitative-cooperative, or side-by-side mode and try to convince the smarter ones why our approach is actually better for the economy and the world in ways they might understand better.

            Because the economic multipliers on military spending on bombs used overseas is much less than on money spend on real productive assets domestically, such as President Obama's infrastructure banks, or even on Medicare as all that money is spend immediately in the US.

            I"m sure I could get through to at least 10% or more, especially if we agreed that in the long-term we must balance the budget on end both budget deficits and trade-deficits which is what the fiscal conservative are most worried about.  I understand those areas pretty well. But, on the down side, I'd have to moderate the "red meat" zingers the home team loves so much, so it might become too bland.  lol

             

            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

            by HoundDog on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 11:30:23 PM PST

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            •  The president tried "to shift from adversarial (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lunachickie, HoundDog

              mode to more of a facilitative-cooperative" one and victoria almost didn't vote. Along with many others.

              Forget the facilitative-cooperative BS, it doesn't work with Rs. Haven't you been paying attention?

              WAKE THE FUCK  UP!!!!!!!

              "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

              by glorificus on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:06:44 AM PST

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              •  Thank you! (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                malie, HoundDog, glorificus, nolagrl

                These goons are not based in reality. "Understanding them" in hopes of getting better results is a fruitless endeavor.

                We're not dealing with them. We are dealing with the ruthless bastards who own them. And those people are not the least bit interested in grown-up warfare--they're into childish scorched earth.

                Fuck Boehner and fuck these GOP toadies. They're all rapidly approaching treason, IMO, if they're not there already. They are not to be trusted under any circumstances and anyone with a working brain will not try and "meet them halfway". There is no halfway with them.

                It is time to #Occupy Media.

                by lunachickie on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:58:43 AM PST

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        •  This is not fucking China centuries ago and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lunachickie

          John Boehner is not a great general.

          "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

          by glorificus on Sun Dec 02, 2012 at 06:03:02 AM PST

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      •  LOL... luna!!! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HoundDog, lunachickie

        I think you're right, and where did you come up with that lunachickie???  You seem to have a great creative mind.  

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