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View Diary: Is Tyreese "Made to Suffer"? In The Walking Dead TV Show There Can Be Only One Black Male Character (342 comments)

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  •  A better indicator (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WereBear Walker

    is the comic.  

    Don't put a show on the hook because there's not a sufficient number of black people on it at one time.  

    It's a fictional zombie apocalypse.

    Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

    by mim5677 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 at 09:22:51 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  fictional means a product made by people (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bsmechanic, Aspe4, Rumaikiya

      who made choices that exist in a society where racial, class, gender, and other types of inequalities are real.

      precisely because it is fictional, is why the walking dead should be subject to critical questions about the world that the writers chose to create.

      you can write this story any number of ways. moreover, as i said in the above this is one of the hardest concepts to get across regarding textual analysis, semiotics, cultural studies etc.

      texts are a reflection of the moment they were created and do the work of power--sometimes in overt ways, other times in subtle ways where "common sense" is how certain inequalities are normalized.

      i said this elsewhere, some of the most retrograde and pernicious examples of popular culture in regards to race and gender are Disney films. When you tell people this they get enraged because they do not want to critically interrogate something from their childhood.

      It is rarely "just" popular culture--that is the power of where "culture" and "politics" intersect.

      •  Your just digging because (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jds1978, WereBear Walker, Prof Haley

        that is what you do because you like analyzing literature I assume.

        Asking the question doesn't make it a valid one.

        Your analysis of the relationships in the show are as made up as the situation itself.

        You only take into account your historical references and ignore some of the far more simplistic reasons for certain reactions because that is your bag.

        To not take into account the changes their world has experienced in the last twelve months is irresponsible.  You are basing your critique on a world that still exists and in the show that world does not exist.  The few similarities are not enough.  

        There are not more than two black males on the show at one time(ignoring the fact that now that Tyrese is here that 50% of the main plot drivers are black and one is female) is because they weren't written into the comic.

        The only other main femail character is a white, bitchy, hyper sexualized civil rights lawyer who clings to any man in power.  

        Feel free to disagree but you are still reading too much into it.  

        Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

        by mim5677 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 07:05:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  problem with your claim (0+ / 0-)

          "There are not more than two black males on the show at one time(ignoring the fact that now that Tyrese is here that 50% of the main plot drivers are black and one is female) is because they weren't written into the comic."

          the show writers have created their own universe and have added characters, removed others. why can't they simply choose to add more people of color who actually speak, are not tropes, etc.?

          you are talking around a basic point in your effort to "defend" the writers--which I don't understand btw. what are you afraid of?

          "You only take into account your historical references and ignore some of the far more simplistic reasons for certain reactions because that is your bag.

          To not take into account the changes their world has experienced in the last twelve months is irresponsible.  You are basing your critique on a world that still exists and in the show that world does not exist.  The few similarities are not enough.  "

          Huh. The show is made up. It is not a historical docudrama. The writers are of this world; as such, they have our baggage.

          My claim is actually a bit different. One of the tired tropes in sci fi and some types of speculative fiction is that in a dystopia race, class, gender, sexuality won't matter. I have argued the opposite--those categories will remain salient and in some ways become even more important.

          There are some great people of color who write speculative fiction who have taken on that issue in great detail.

          •  They did choose to write in people of color (0+ / 0-)

            where there were none.  

            T-Dog a character was created out of nowhere lasted as long as Rick's wife.

            Oscar(Dexter) lasted a few episodes and was split in to two different characters of color who lasted about as long as they did in the comic.

            Daryl and Merle were based on a character in the comic that has lasted longer than Dexter and came in to the book later.  I'm betting that Merle has between 60 and 120 minutes left of airtime.  Ask yourself how much actual dialogue Daryl has compared to his brother.  Daryl is muscle and his most common sections of dialogue are one liners.  Compared to his brother who has been in fewer shows his dialogue in minimal.  

            You are pressing an argument where there really isn't one.  You may be able to do all the technical analysis but again it doesn't mean you are correct it just means you have an academic foundation for which to make incorrect assumptions.  

            If going deeper is an exercise to flesh out truth at some point you have to recognize that the analysis could be off base.  There is plenty of evidence in this case to prove that it is.

            Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

            by mim5677 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 11:04:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  if you want to defend T-Dog I will simply (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fidel

              laugh. others have said it better than I have. google "T-Dog meme" and check it out.

              "You are pressing an argument where there really isn't one."

              If you can look at the sum evidence of what the show has offered to this point, especially with how the black men are 2 dimensional mutes with a quota of 1, and explain it away, then you are deep in the white racial frame brother.

              As I said black folks watch Tyler Perry movies so nothing surprises me. I mean that nicely.

              If you can reconcile the obvious that this is a society where "race matters" and that our popular culture will not reflect said dynamics in some way, then I am all ears. When you come up with that treatise do publish it in a journal or major press because you will be famous.

              •  Oscar and T-dog weren't (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capsfan1978, Cixelsyd

                based on characters in the comic, what more can you expect.  

                The writers of the show have the foundation of their universe based in the comic.  

                They have to make connections to other parts of the story and it forces them to put characters in to perspective.  

                T-dog was a made up character who was impactful to the story despite his lack of dialogue something that is mirrored in Daryl's character.  

                The jokes about T-dogs character are pretty lame if you actually focus on what the character brings to the show.  You are looking at creating a story line specifically for his character and what would that be.  

                If you look at the plots in the story it would make little sense for him to have a plot line developed if it had nowhere to go in the end.  He had no conflicts, he had no love interests, and he played second moral fiddle to Dale and now Herschel.  

                He didn't do anything controversial in the story and his lack of dialogue wasn't particularly alarming to anyone other than people who are keeping score of race points in the show.  

                Obsessing about racial framing is fine but you just aren't able to consider all the other issues that go in to making a show and how keeping characters around that don't add to the story line or move the plot along ends up being a drag on the budget and in the end make no sense.  

                Tyrese is in the comic and T-dog isn't.  Your complaints about Tyrese in that brief instance were offensive analysis considering the length of time he had been on screen.  

                Axel is in the comic and stays alive, whereas Oscar(nice Dexter) does not so if you do actually read the comic you would have to know that his time was going to be short, so it's almost like you know that you are misreading some of the things that are happening in the story and using an academic foundation to prove things you know are not real.  

                It's all there for you in the comic and you can see how it translates to the show, yet you are throwing in a misguided and incomplete analysis of things in the show.  

                The comic is the indicator of how the show will work, the connections are made pretty well and I would challenge you to do something more useful than looking up ridiculous and not well thought out memes about T-dog.

                Develop a plot line for T-dog involving current or past characters that is better than what the story has now and involve Oscar.  

                Nothing too detailed, maybe an outline of how T-dog would be represented better in the story and still have it be a hit.

                Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                by mim5677 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 12:06:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  t-dog was a good chauffeur and man servant (0+ / 0-)

                  so yes he was impactful...insert snark.

                  again, why the deep investment in denying the obvious. you are a "brother," no? why invested in denying what should be plain on its face regarding how people like you/us are depicted and caricaturized in the mainstream media? denying a thing does not make it go away. calling it out can actually bring a type of peace and strength.

                  why live in denial? are you related to t-dog? own stock in AMC's parent company?

                  •  From this point on 50% of the plot drivers... (0+ / 0-)

                    WILL BE BLACK!!!!  That is what you call obvious.  Obvious are things you don't have to ask people to go deeper for.  Obvious are things that people can get without sophistication.  THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED OBVIOUS AND NOT SOME WORD THAT MEANS THE OPPOSITE OF OBVIOUS.

                    Send IronE Singleton your analysis and see what he says.  

                    Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                    by mim5677 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 08:25:10 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  again, a simple question...and why would (0+ / 0-)

                      that be a problem if black folks actually got to be central to the show?

                      again, why the investment in t-dog, your observation about the plot and other characters not withstanding, one claim has little to do with the other.

                      please explain.

                      •  T-dogs character is just the easiest way to (0+ / 0-)

                        diffuse your critique of the show because he is based on nothing from the comic.  The characters in the show that come over from the comic are developed differently.  I checked out your other diary about the show and thought it was funny that you mentioned Tyrese hooking up with white women but failed to mention that Michonne blew him within a couple of days at the prison.  My observation is related because the plot and the characters involved need to be synced up with the novel in order or your analysis to hold true and it doesn't do that.  

                        Your caricature of Michonne as "the maid" or whatever the exact words were up to this point in the show could only stem from one scene in the beginning of season 3 where Michonne is giving her water.  Beyond that Michonne is doing little to zero caretaking of Andrea.  This part of the show does not happen in the comic.  The relationship between the two in there only to create the Woodbury connection.  They make Andrea out to me a more controversial character in the story by linking her with Shane and therefore against Rick and that creates the room for her to be separated from the group.  Michonne is introduced in the comic as she is in the show with the hood and pets out of nowhere so it creates the perfect opportunity to make the connection between two characters that are written over the long term in the comic.  

                        They melded Dale, and Allen in to Herschel's character in the show so they certainly aren't going to have Andrea fucking Herschel right?  So they send her off with Michonne, create a friendship and basically have them switch places.  Michonne goes to prison, Andrea goes it alone but the friendship allows the show the room to bring Andrea back to the prison by the end of the season if she makes it.  

                        Andrea and Michonne actually have a relationship of equal power, which is why neither asked the other to tag along during the confrontation with the governor as well as why Michonne left her ass in Woodbury.  

                        I feel the explanations are too easy, when looked at from both angles.  The show has bigger fish to fry than that of racial stereotypes.  Any one of the characters could choose to go it alone or try to take over and you already know that the power structure within Ricks camp has to change in the show.  The universe in which they live makes them far more receptive to stability and safety in numbers without much regard for typical power structures.  

                        It's not a problem for black characters to be central to the show especially since they are but it is a problem to make black characters central to the show that are not supposed to be central characters in the show like T and Oscar.

                        Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                        by mim5677 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 09:06:11 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Listen man (0+ / 0-)

                        I'm tired, I love the show, I think your wrong, write some more crap about the show so I can discuss my favorite show in detail and tell you you're full of shit at the same time.

                        Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                        by mim5677 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 at 09:08:10 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  you are so mature, very rigorous, are you 10? (0+ / 0-)

                          if you read and were a careful reader who was considerate and not invested in using profanity and acting like a child, you would see that i explicitly framed this around the TV show. that is very important. as i said, you are very invested in denying some obvious aspects of the show's narrative.

                          you said something very important. you love the show. it is common when we love a thing as a fan--and i like the show too, and adore the comics, to not want to critically interrogate it.

                          black people watch the hellish Tyler Perry mess; we watched blackface too.

                          don't run away from complexity. it is a bad look.

                          google is your friend. look up magical negro. then think about how michonne has been depicted. go to the jim crow museum website and look up some of the stereotypes about black women. work through them.

                          it is very very important that michonne was introduced as a caretaker for andrea. very much so given how black women have since the dawn of cinema, tv, and other types of mass media, been depicted as maids and servants to white women and their families. if you do not  understand that fact, there is no way to really take you seriously.

                          i get that you are a fanboy. just engage your mind a bit more.

                          an example of your facile thinking.

                          "The show has bigger fish to fry than that of racial stereotypes. "

                          Who said I wanted the walking dead to be a psa? Bad look and very reductionist. Interrogate and be a critical thinker. Don't dumb it down.

                          •  So when a person making an argument resorts to (0+ / 0-)

                            insults, what does that mean?

                            Oh, those poor dumb black people that watch Tyler Perry.  

                            Your two diaries here and repeated entries about the subject says you want it to be a psa.  Google magic negro michonne.  You will be pleased with the findings, although I think you're the kind of person who is already aware of what you will find.

                            Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                            by mim5677 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 04:56:09 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you do get the problem with tyler perry (0+ / 0-)

                            and the race minstrel cross-dress shtick don't you? or are you a devotee of such coonery and buffoonery.

                          •  i'm a devotee (0+ / 0-)

                            I've never watched an episode or one ounce of his work. Analyze that.

                            This is what irks me about "you people".  You'd never accuse Tyler Perry of coonery to his face.  You'll happily settle for being a desk warrior but I'd bet you'd have a pretty good Madea impression ready to go if you actually ever met him.

                            Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                            by mim5677 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 05:29:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  son, you don't know me very well (0+ / 0-)

                            i would ask him to his face about his foolishness. but again, it is easy to make such assumptions. do you have that limited a view of black men, our honor, and integrity?

                            there are still race men and race women out there. a dying breed, but they still exist.

                            "you people?" come now, you can do better than recycle petty insults and dismissive invective that whiteness uses to describe people of color?

                            asking again, do you get the problem with perry's shtick?

                          •  There is no problem with Tyler Perry's shtick (0+ / 0-)

                            His work does not reflect on individuals and if it does it's because they are idiots for thinking that Tyler Perry's show has in any way shape or form considered their feelings before putting a script together.  

                            I am an individual black male.  I am not a part of a collective of black men.  You don't represent me, I don't represent you, and we don't represent each other.  The reason being, we have not entered an agreement to do so and we don't have a relationship close enough that representing each other would make any sense.

                            So where as people like you have to constantly worry and bitch and moan about, "Why come T-Dog, Oscar, and Michonne don't have they own malfuckin' show?" to feel intelligent, I get to enjoy it.

                            If it makes you feel better, I drive my white wife all over town and cook dinner most of the time.  When it gets hot outside, guess who's in the backyard toiling in the garden? Her blackmanservantchauffeursingin'n'dancinshuckin'n'jivinhuuuuzbn.

                            Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                            by mim5677 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 06:50:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  that is the problem, isn't it (0+ / 0-)

                            Perry's work does reflect on black people. you may want to believe you an island onto yourself, separate from others. i do hope you know better.

                            do you drink kool aid, grape preferably, while you hang out with miss anne? couldn't resist. are you a good buck dancer? i bet you can cut quite a jig!

                            all in good sport.

                          •  I do live on an island (0+ / 0-)

                            with the people I choose to live on said island with indeed separated from others.

                            You should probably look in to your own ability to deal with how whitey has framed your world.  

                            See all this time you could have separated yourself on an island with people who do nothing but read books and talk about shit in ways only that you and your group have the sophistimacation to understand and here whitey just has you believing you are just a smart negro.

                            Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                            by mim5677 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 07:35:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  come now, are you that delusional? (0+ / 0-)

                            i am free. very much so because i see the world for what it is.

                            at this point i think you are playing the role as a "brother" who is really a white guy doing a ventriloquist act. that is the only way you can excuse make for Tyler Perry and other related ilk...as well as the bizarre justifications for t-dog here.

                            "I do live on an island with the people I choose to live on said island with indeed separated from others."

                            there is a diagnosis for that condition in the dsm-v by the way.

                          •  No you don't (0+ / 0-)

                            You see the world for what you think is there, that's why you are questioning my race based on a disagreement.  

                            That's why you are questioning my race at all.

                            I'm baiting you a little bit so it isn't really fair.

                            Go deeper to find the obvious, right?

                            That you could honestly justify my opinion by changing my race shows how....rigid your thinking is, which is why you have a problem with the show.  Here I am!!!

                            Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                            by mim5677 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 08:46:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  dumbass (0+ / 0-)

                            Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                            by mim5677 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 08:47:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  how childish (0+ / 0-)

                            I was proceeding from good faith before I looked your profile up. No need to continue given your mo of name calling and the like.

                            Again, as I said, there is an entry in the DSM-V for folks with your affliction.

                            You are a mentor to young people of color. However, you act like a child. It is not wonder our young people are in such crisis. Their failures are those of their parents and apparently teachers like yourself.

                          •  100% of my seniors(3) went to college. (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm not a teacher, I find jobs for people with disabilities coming out of prison.

                            Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                            by mim5677 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 05:35:38 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  they need even more of a role model then (0+ / 0-)
                          •  Yeah because (0+ / 0-)

                            someone they look up to as a second father, who has a good family, a good job, helps people(including their own families), and is stable isn't good enough.

                            Because the guy who drives them home after practice five nights a week and makes sure they miss practice to keep up with their schoolwork isn't good enough.

                            Because the guy who takes PTO to go see them in talent shows when their parents don't show up isn't good enough.

                            Because the guy who drops one off at a shelter after every practice and game and makes sure her other teammates don't judge her about it isn't good enough.  

                            Who ya gonna shoot wit dat homie, you'd rather blast an original instead of a phony, true macaroni, you don't even know me, and why does your gun say n****z only?

                            by mim5677 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 11:43:38 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

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