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View Diary: Computerized Brain To Be Completed by 2020 (180 comments)

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  •  Bees are not self-conscious (1+ / 0-)
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    Dumbo

    And you know this how, exactly? As opposed to assuming that you know the level (if any) of their consciousness?  Bertrand Russell ascribed his interest in philosophy to a nanny who informed the little boy that eating fish was fine because fish feel no pain. Russell even at 5 years old asked himself "How does she know that?"

    "Something has gone very wrong with America, not just its economy, but its ability to function as a democratic nation. And it’s hard to see when or how that wrongness will get fixed." Paul Krugman and Robin Wells

    by Reston history guy on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 05:24:04 PM PST

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    •  While we can't say that certain (1+ / 0-)
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      Dumbo

      behaviors are indicative of self-consciousness, we can say that self-consciousness entails certain behaviors such as self recognition, which bees lack.  And if they aren't conscious then what are they, unconscious?  Subconscious?  There isn't a term to describe activity except for consciousness, although I admit that there may be some other state that we don't really have a name for, perhaps controlled or something similar.

      In terms of fish feeling pain, I would say that's more complicated and it isn't clear whether or not they do, depending on what we consider pain.  They certainly act as if they feel pain, and they have the requisite nervous system, but beyond that it becomes a bit of a moot point.

      The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

      by AoT on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 05:30:34 PM PST

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      •  Drone bees don't have any trouble (2+ / 0-)
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        Garrett, Dumbo

        recognizing a queen.  Worker bees can recognize drones, because they kick them out in the Fall.  Bees can distinguish their own hive from another hive.  I think its a stretch to claim that bees aren't self aware.

        The sleep of reason brings forth monsters. --Goya

        by MadScientist on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 07:36:24 PM PST

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        •  Awareness of others isn't self-awareness (0+ / 0-)

          As should be obvious.  This isn't even an argument to be made.  Self-recognition == recognition of one's self.

          I think its a stretch to claim that bees aren't self aware.
          I don't believe that you think that, I think you're playing devil's advocate.

          The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

          by AoT on Thu Dec 06, 2012 at 09:13:34 AM PST

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