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View Diary: Lower the Ceiling and Raise the Floor (203 comments)

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  •  We've seen communalism play out (2+ / 0-)
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    joanneleon, Only Needs a Beat

    in places like '60-70s communes in the USA and kibbutzim in Israel. Some people love it, but there are artificial dynamics there too, and it's not for everyone. Of course we've also seen it play out at the national level in the Soviet Union etc.

    Full communalism is fine if it's strictly voluntary, but when the state gets involved it's not.

    Also, it may be that there are just too many people and that no one economic model should prevail. Somewhat relatedly, I've long thought that it's perfectly fitting for urban areas to have a more socialist style of governance and for rural areas to be more libertarian.

    Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

    by Simplify on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 11:41:25 AM PST

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    •  I agree that the state fucks up communal living (3+ / 0-)
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      JesseCW, RJDixon74135, blueoasis

      By definition, communism is always voluntary. The USSR, for example, never achieved communism, and in fact it was corrupted.

      Anarchism is unforced communal living. It is libertarian socialism. It was Marx who asserted that socialism needed to be forced by a central authority.

      Humans are by nature social and when left to their own natural impulses, tend to resort to mutual aid with their communities.

      But fundamentally, I don't agree that private ownership of resources, land, and other items used to produce goods is acceptable or is a right, since such private ownership always comes at the expense of deliberate exclusion of others, and almost always comes about through violence and force. It is theft. It is deliberate economic slavery.

      And it isn't voluntary, speaking of which.

      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

      by ZhenRen on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 11:53:44 AM PST

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    •  ?? (1+ / 0-)
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      ZhenRen

      Only hunter-gatherer societies tend to be more truly communalist than agricultural societies, left to their own devices.

      This place needs a PVP server.

      by JesseCW on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 01:46:19 PM PST

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      •  I remember (5+ / 0-)

        the account of Australian aborigines who had left the traditional tribal environment and went to work in the city. Researchers did a study in which a group of them were asked to go back to the old ways, living off the land.

        Of those in the study, the levels of physical energy expended, as well as psychological well being, levels of stress, and so forth, were monitored and compared between modern city dwelling and the natural hunter gatherer lifestyle.

        The results of the study surprised the researchers. These individuals extended less energy, were less stressed and happier in the hunter gatherer lifestyle than living in modern industrialized city with the so-called higher standard of living. Of course, these were people who had become adapted to either way of life.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 02:18:18 PM PST

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