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View Diary: Are talks between Obama and Boehner already breaking down? (194 comments)

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  •  what i heard someone say was, once the tax cuts (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HeyMikey, elwior, Timothy J, CwV

    expire it automatically pushes the deadline further down the road as far as raising the debt limit ceiling is concerned b/c there's more revenue coming in, therefore, that delays the need to raise the ceiling.

    i don't think it answers your question, tho :)

    •  Not necessarily. Look at Europe. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tikkun, Ottoe, mightymouse

      It's critical to understand that the "cliff's" cut-spending, raise-taxes approach is the austerity approach that Britain and Europe have used to cut their debt.

      And it's backfired. It's made their GDP shrink, which means even with higher tax rates, tax revenues have gone down. There is every reason to think the same thing could happen here. And if it does, then we'll hit the debt ceiling sooner, not later.

      "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

      by HeyMikey on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 01:34:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not at all. (0+ / 0-)

        Our situations are in most ways not analogous. First off, the individual European states do not control their own currency, so there's that. Secondly, Europe's tax rates were higher than ours to begin with, no?
        So therefore, it is eminently possible, if not probable, that raising our rates will increase tax revenues, just as logic and experience have shown over the many decades since our tax structure was created.

        "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

        by bryduck on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 01:40:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I disagree. (0+ / 0-)
          the individual European states do not control their own currency, so there's that
          That would matter if we were willing to print a lot of money and get it into the hands of people who might spend it, like via increased unemployment benefits and stimulus spending. But our Federal Reserve is up against the zero lower bound for interest rates; its quantitative easing only puts more money into the hands of banks and investors, who already have a lot of idle money, so the QE money sits idle as well; and Congress refuses to enact more stimulus. So our ability to control our currency is a potential advantage that we refuse to use.
          Europe's tax rates were higher than ours to begin with, no? So therefore, it is eminently possible, if not probable, that raising our rates will increase tax revenues
          Increased taxes on the rich and corporations, yes, since as I noted above they have a lot of idle money.

          But the "fiscal cliff" would also raise taxes on our working poor and middle class, who currently spend nearly every dollar of disposable income they have. So these tax revenues would come directly out of GDP.

          "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

          by HeyMikey on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:23:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Please (0+ / 0-)

            You know as well as I that if we went off the cliff on Jan 1, a middle-class tax cut would be passed on Jan 2. And even if it took a few weeks, it would be retroactive.

            Neither party wants middle-class tax rates to go up. They just want to get as much leverage as they can from it.

            matthewborgard.com ~ @MatthewBorgard

            by zegota on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:35:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not so sure Republicans really care about (0+ / 0-)

              middle class tax rates. They're way past pretending they're main objective is serving the very rich. I think they'll see how long they can push it before Obama blinks and agrees to at least some tax cuts for the rich. It won't be back to the Bush rates but I don't think they'll ever support a stand alone tax cut for the middle class.

              Let's not let 2014 be anything like 2010. Republicans only win when we stay home!

              by Tim D M on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:06:26 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  you could be right, but the r's will pay for it at (0+ / 0-)

                election time.  2014.  2016.  2018, etc.

                •  According to them, the reason they lost (0+ / 0-)

                  in 2012 was because they weren't conservative enough so in their minds, they still think total obstruction and ideological purity will be rewarded. Plus, any deal that Obama will accept will be a violation of Norquist's pledge according to Grover.

                  Let's not let 2014 be anything like 2010. Republicans only win when we stay home!

                  by Tim D M on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 07:58:20 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  There's something to this I think (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HeyMikey

        The austerity bomb does push off the debt ceiling question, but if it DOES trigger a recession, then the debt ceiling becomes more of a problem, exactly in the way that we know  (but the supposed fiscal hawks will not admit) that austerity is bad ...

      •  Read that as (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        HeyMikey, bluezen

        "It's made their GOP shrink,..."

        and was wondering why that would be bad :-)

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