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View Diary: Shut Down the NRA group. (281 comments)

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  •  Huh? (10+ / 0-)

    1) They try to change the subject to strictly mental health. I agree that our problems in this country are greater than just guns, but guns are a symptom of the violence that are society pushes. Yes, we have to deal with those larger issues, but gun control needs to be part of the discusssion.

    Even if I accept that this is a dodge, are you willing to hear the case that the main controlling factor in gun violence might not be the gun at all?

    2) They try to talk about technical aspects of guns that the diarist may not understand--like bullet sizes and muzzle velocities. I have seen it a bunch of times. These comments have got to be ignored.

    The fact is that these things matter. If you're proposing legislation with the goal of X, and you don't know what you're legislating, you stand a very good chance of writing legislation that achieves Not X. This is what happened with the Assault Weapons Ban. This is almost what happened with the .50 Caliber ban that Rod Blagojevich proposed when he was in the House of Representatives.

    You can ignore the technical side, sure, but my guess is that you'll end up defending crappy legislation in the process.

    3) They talk about their prowess with the weapon. I believe this is a tactic to get people to say something emotional. They often tried to derail the debate about drum magazines by talking about how they could shoot of more rounds with regular magazines.

    See, here's an example. I see this as a technical point. You see this as bragging.

    ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
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    by maxomai on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:11:14 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Easy answers: (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sandino, JMcDonald, Miggles, sngmama
      Even if I accept that this is a dodge, are you willing to hear the case that the main controlling factor in gun violence might not be the gun at all?
      No.
      If you're proposing legislation with the goal of X, and you don't know what you're legislating, you stand a very good chance of writing legislation that achieves Not X.
      This is easy. Ban GUNS. All of them, for any regular citizens. If that's too ambiguous for you, ban anything designed for the express purpose of shooting a projectile with force in order to cause harm to a body with an average projectile velocity sufficient to be invisible to the average naked eye.

      -9.63, 0.00
      I am not a purity troll. I am a purity warrior.

      by nobody at all on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:23:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Flip side (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kestrel9000, oldpunk, fuzzyguy

        No.

        Well, at least you're honest about this issue being axiomatic for you.

        This is easy. Ban GUNS.

        Will never happen. Not in the United States.

        ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
        My Blog
        My wife's woodblock prints

        by maxomai on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:48:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you're certainly right over our lifetimes. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber

          I do not expect a ban on guns in the US to happen at any time in the next century at least.   A change that major would take a hell of a lot of change in public opinion, against entrenched opposition.

          •  Similar to other politics (0+ / 0-)

            The anti-choice and pro-choice sides are deeply entrenched and have little common ground, because they're operating from completely different core values. What little common ground might exist becomes nearly impossible to find because the discussion becomes too heated too quickly.

            The same goes for gun rights v. gun control.

            ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
            My Blog
            My wife's woodblock prints

            by maxomai on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:36:34 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think they've also put on blinders (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              maxomai, fuzzyguy, Glen The Plumber

              in that all of the focus is on specific 'types' of weapons, or whether or not to give access to weapons to specific people.

              The problem is not specific guns or specific people. It's people who are, perhaps only temporarily, in a specific frame of mind having access while in that frame of mind.

              I think addressing that requires a far different approach to 'control' than we currently attempt.

              •  Hm. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fuzzyguy

                That's a thorny problem.

                Do you have anything in mind?

                ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
                My Blog
                My wife's woodblock prints

                by maxomai on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:16:41 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I've made suggestions in several comments (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Glen The Plumber

                  Along the lines of actual well-regulated militia armouries and armourers with whom you would check in and check out weapons at the time of use.  The armourers would have the discretion to ask police to speak with people who appear to be acting erratically or are requesting weapon checkouts for reasons that don't jibe with their stated purpose.  A linked database would also prevent people from checking out multiple weapons at the same time, requiring you to return other checked out weapons for storage before taking out different ones.

                  Accommodations could be made for multiple use on specific licensed firing ranges, and you could even check out state-owned weapons such as hunting rifles without having to purchase them yourself.

                  •  So no concealed carry, no home defense? (0+ / 0-)

                    That's going to face bitter resistance indeed.

                    ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
                    My Blog
                    My wife's woodblock prints

                    by maxomai on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 09:52:32 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, there's always bitter resistance. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Glen The Plumber

                      But for concealed carry, I'd require a far higher standard of training and monitoring than is currently required.  Essentially, I would hold out for you'd have to actually be an active militia member who could serve as an auxiliary police officer.

                      I've suggested that home defense would have to be a single 'check out' of a weapon that would have to remain at the home, and a serious gun safe as well as other oversight.  Perhaps random checks along the lines of drug checks, such that if you aren't found to be keeping your weapon in the gun safe, or if it's missing, your 'license' is suspended for some period, 6 months or a year, say.

      •  You really only want the police and the military (0+ / 0-)

        to have access to firearms?

        By the Collision of different Sentiments, Sparks of Truth are struck out, and political Light is obtained. - Benjamin Franklin

        by oldpunk on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:03:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, I personally don't even want the (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          oldpunk, nobody at all

          majority of police to be using firearms or other lethal force.  I think we've seen abuse of that privilege for decades.  I'd prefer that only designated SWAT units carry firearms, but I realize that's impracticable until such time as we seriously reduce the number of poorly regulated firearms flooding the streets.

        •  Let's narrow that to "the military" and then (0+ / 0-)

          only some of them.

          Of course the cat is out of the bag now. The policy will be badly outgunned without guns. But you have to start somehow and get there someday.

          As far as I'm concerned, "give me liberty or give me death" is one of the stupidest, most ideological things ever said by anyone. That this country is commonly held to be founded on similar sentiments tells anyone everything they need to know about America.

          It is a perfect translation of "My way or the highway, and I'll damn well have a shootout with you to settle it."

          -9.63, 0.00
          I am not a purity troll. I am a purity warrior.

          by nobody at all on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:32:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The main factor in gun violence... (5+ / 0-)

      ...is access to a gun. If you don't have access to a gun, you can't use one, whether you have any mental illness or not.

    •  here is the solution. Ban guns, repeal the 2nd (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Johnny Nucleo, a2nite

      amendment then you do not have to worry about who has a mental illness and who does not. Nobody bets them. Problem solved. Most guns used in these horrific crimes are legally purchased. The shooter from yesterday seems to have used his mothers guns. Which were purchased legally. No laws were violated. Make it simple. If no one is allowed to own guns then the mentally ill can not get them either.

      Nothing else matters. Every other issue is a distractions.

      •  Well (4+ / 0-)

        At least now we're being honest that the real goal is a blanket prohibition.

        I don't see this happening in my lifetime.

        ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
        My Blog
        My wife's woodblock prints

        by maxomai on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:25:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not mine. (3+ / 0-)

          My goal is a serious decrease in gun violence.

          While banning would be one tactic to attempt such a goal, I see it as unworkable in the short to near term, and unlikely in my lifetime.

          •  We thought in the 50s that civil rights would not (0+ / 0-)

            In the 50s we thought we might get to the moon by the year 2100. We thought it would take lifetimes to decode the human genome. We can do this. It takes work. But we have to change the terms of the debate. We have been fighting on a political battleground dictated by the NRA. There are things we could try to limit gun violence but the NRA will slow walk the legislative process. You have to simplify the terms of reference. Or else we get bogged down in technicalities. Which guns to regulate? What is an assault rifle? The arguments over whether guns make people safer? The state of the research on gun safety is very poor. Because the NRA pushed through Congress laws that banned public health research into gun safety. So we can not have a real discussion on gun safety because the research is old outdated and in many cases discredited. If you have those arguments you will lose. The NRA will not win but they do not need to win the argument. They own Congress. And the part they do not own are scared to death of them.

            So the fight against the NRA has to take place in public. Learn from the wisdom of Occupy and the Tea Party to move Congress. And realize that people rally around simple straight forward ideas. Repeal the 2nd  is more inspiring than Improve the background check system by forcing state governments to up date their databases and sharing of data. The second idea does not fit on a bumper sticker.

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