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View Diary: Civil gun discussions? Our community is the shelter for each other. (167 comments)

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  •  Passion is always good (6+ / 0-)

    attacking others with passion, not so much. No one here did this, all of us are gutted by it. We need to work together. If we do we can be a very powerful force.

    "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

    by high uintas on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:39:23 PM PST

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    •  Over the last couple days (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Agent99, high uintas, Sandino

      RKBA folks have taken some really hard hits, some that crossed way over the line.  I recognize that, and it's true.

      This is an olive branch diary...but please don't think it goes,only in one direction.  Some of the folks in RKBA have been serious bullies over the years.  Y'all gotta look at some of your behavior too, talk about it amongst yourselves, and figure out how you all are gonna reduce some of your venom as well.

      I am not excusing the innapropriate insults that have been directed at you in the last couple days....but I am not excusing your bullying, venom and gang tactics either.

      To be clear, I am not blameless, I am trying to reign in some of my own shit too.

      "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

      by Empty Vessel on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 07:02:39 PM PST

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      •  Hopefully Kitsap will be back. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sandino

        My hope is that theatre goon, (whose words I appreciate in non-gun diaries), and others will focus on and sincerely contemplate the idea that the lives of six and seven year olds are far more valuable than anyone's "right" to own, brandish, and fire weapons which are only designed to kill people.

        I saw one inappropriate comment, and read theatre goon's diary, but the main thrust of that comment, (and most likely the reason it was so heavily recced),was an attempt to get the RKBA people to reflect on their armed aggression.

        I have yet to see that reflection.

        An honest diary expressing true comprehension, empathy, compassion, justice and sorrow would be a welcome RKBA diary at the moment.

        Thanks for creating this safe space to speak.

        "Each time a person stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope." ~Robert F. Kennedy

        by Agent99 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 07:53:52 PM PST

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        •  I agree mostly with what you say (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high uintas, evilstorm, Oh Mary Oh

          But I somewhat reject the idea that they "sincerely contemplate" the lives of the many children killed. Let me explain, while I understand what you mean, I think it sets things up so that no conversation is possible.

          While there may be few, and I know at least one (non-RKBA) who argue that the loss of these children's lives is,the price of freedom...most do not agree that we have to make that choice.  Rather, they argue (incorrectly in my view) that an armed populace will reduce these sorts of crimes.

          They are offended, in some sense rightly, when people suggest or hint at the idea that they don't care about the lives of children or place the lives of children second to their gun rights.

          Now, they may well be wrong, and I beleive them to be wrong.  I beleive their (and many others) advocacy of less gun restrictions did lead to this tragedy...but that does not mean that this tragedy was their intent, or even that they accepted it as a sad byproduct. I Am sure none wanted this tragedy, and only a few twisted fucks would argue the second.

          Where we need to be careful is ascribing our perception of the result of lax gun laws as the intent of the people who favor them.  As wrongheaded as they may be, they beleive that an armed country is a safer country, a country where these sorts of tragedies would occur less frequently.

          I beleive they are wrong, way wrong, dangerously wrong...but they are not evil even if their mistaken support of lax gun laws leads to evil actions of others.  There are a few twisted fucks on the pro-gun side...but with a few exceptions, those twisted fucks don't last long on DKos.

          "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

          by Empty Vessel on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 08:38:29 PM PST

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          •  EV (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Empty Vessel, theboz, oldpunk, fuzzyguy

            Not everyone who is RKBA is in total agreement on everything. I don't think that more guns makes things safer except in a very personal sense, say someone like Kitsap who feels vulnerable without her weapon. The views on guns vary.

            I personally believe that the 2nd amendment gives us the right to have a gun. I believe that the framers wanted an armed citizenry, one that is knowledgeable and proficient with their weapons should they need to take them up.

            I personally don't believe that a room full of guns would stop a tragedy like what happened. I also don't think that room would necessarily be a lit fuse. Responsible people can own and carry a gun without going insane from just having it and killing willy nilly.

            I believe in reasonable gun laws, but I want them to be effective. If you ban a certain type of gun that will not stop all of these tragedies. If you banned guns all together, that would not make our country gun free. We have to be smart about what we do, not just window dressing to make people feel better.

            As for what happened. My gawd, there are no words for how I feel.

            "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

            by high uintas on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 09:02:53 PM PST

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            •  And I am not advocating for a complete ban (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              high uintas

              I am advocating for a new Assault Weapons Ban, and something along similar lines for handguns (though I gotta say, I am closer to wanting an outright ban on handguns, but I ain't advocating for that)

              You can see my thoughts on a new AWB here

              I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

              "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

              by Empty Vessel on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 09:08:34 PM PST

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              •  First (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Empty Vessel, fuzzyguy

                As I've said before I don't know guns, I'm woefully ignorant of particulars of most weapons.

                Remember that hunters go for game bigger or faster than deer. There is a huge difference between a deer and an elk or moose.  

                On the size of the clip, yes I can see where that would slow the shooter down some. I would like to get the thoughts of some of the RKBAers who actually know what they are talking about if you get my drift.

                "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

                by high uintas on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 09:48:21 PM PST

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                •  One thing (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  high uintas

                  As I conceived of this, it would not absolute limits on each catagory.  Rather a formulae or points awarded in each catagory.  So, you could have fully automatic bb gun with a massive capacity, say, or an elephant gun that took half an hour to reload.

                  It would be left to the gun manufacturers to design their guns to remain under some defined "lethality" value.  So, for instance, they could design a clip that was a royal pain in the ass to change to reduce the firing rate and thereby increase the muzzle velocity.

                  The idea is to do something like cafe standards for cars.  The rule doesn't tell companies how to achieve greater mileage, and not all cars have to get the exact same mileage, so companies can figure out on their own how to achieve the mileage goals.

                  Less stupid micromanaging, no outright bans, but still achieving something substantive in terms of gun control.

                  "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

                  by Empty Vessel on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 10:31:37 PM PST

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                •  RKBA has no authority (0+ / 0-)

                  They don't know more than others, they just proclaim more certainty.

        •  No one in RKBA (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theboz, oldpunk, fuzzyguy, joedemocrat

          needs to reflect on "their armed agression".  I do not know what the hell you are talking about.

          "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

          by high uintas on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 09:05:10 PM PST

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          •  Thank you, high uintas, for proving my point. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sandino

            Instead of responding with empathy, compassion and understanding, you shoot straight from the hip with an absolute refusal to even acknowledge that internal reflection might be wise.

            Locked and loaded armed aggressive assholes love to terrify people.

            I am fully prepared to stand with the six-and-seven-year-olds and fight you unarmed.

            "Each time a person stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope." ~Robert F. Kennedy

            by Agent99 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 09:42:38 PM PST

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            •  You have no idea how I feel (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fuzzyguy

              If you knew anything about me you might have some justification for your imagining whether I have compassion, empathy or understanding. You attack and then blame the person you attacked for the attack.

              I don't own a gun, never have. What should I reflect on? I have raised a child and do have grand children in schools, my heart breaks for those people who have lost what is precious to them.

              So you think I'm a "locked and loaded armed asshole". Projection much?

              "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

              by high uintas on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:47:52 AM PST

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