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View Diary: Michael Moore: The gun lobby, tonight, is on the ropes. (Updated 2x!) (192 comments)

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  •  The side by side comparison (68+ / 0-)

    to the incident in China is really telling. Disturbed people happen and they can hurt other people; but, it takes an assault weapon for them to be deadly efficient.

    The massacre in Newtown lays bare every false claim held up by the right. Their tired old tropes are meaningless in the face of our collective horror at what their actions have wrought.

    I sincerely hope that this is the beginning of the end of their influence.

    Wanted: New sig line. Must be insightful with a good sense of humor. Non-smoking, no pets.

    by Herodotus Prime on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 01:55:39 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Too often... (22+ / 0-)

      ..after these tragedies, the NRA infers that the victims are 'collateral damage' in NRA's defense of their (imagined) second amendment rights.

      Their current silence is speaking volumes.

      Isn't it discouraging to think how many people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit? (Noel Coward)

      by Mid10Dem on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 04:34:09 AM PST

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      •  They woke up Saturday in Hell. (9+ / 0-)

        That's why we can't hear them ???

        "We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

        by bontemps2012 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:59:17 AM PST

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      •  I think it's fair to say to gun owners that the (15+ / 0-)

        days following this tragedy perhaps more than the others, people fear you. They fear you might be the next sick, disturbed, enraged person to go off and start killing them or their family members.

        To gun owners, people live in fear of you. That's a hell of a way to go through life. And this is just speaking from a personal feeling, a feeling I can easily imagine extends out into society in whole, a feeling based on personal interaction with gun owners I know. People that I have to worry about being upset over something and then having to be on guard for. Why should any person in our society have that kind of power over the rest of us?

        Now, if you take some pleasure in that, then you are not the kind of person that should be allowed to own guns.

        I think that's just where we're at in this country. Perhaps it's time most of us grow up and stop playing at Cowboys and Indians and stop romanticizing weapons of death.

        We are collectively, one immature mf'ing country. And as for the 2nd Amendment, it has now become an argument about whether or not the government's ability to protect all of the citizens of this country from crazed gun owners trumps those 'rights' the NRA purports to possess. I believe it does.

        Vote Tea Party Taliban! Bring the Burqa to America.

        by Pescadero Bill on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 07:46:10 AM PST

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        •  it is not merely gun owners (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pescadero Bill

          apparently surveys (which may be inaccurate) indicate that more homes in America have guns than cars (cars have outstripped the buying power of American families, we have fallen behind many European nations in car ownership).

          The people who need and have arsenals of semi-automatic weapons, they are the ones we need to fear.  One shotgun or one hunting rifle, makes a gun owner, but they generally aren't the ones on a mass murder spree.  And I thoroughly agree that I am happy not to be around certain people who are too irrationally angry at the world (FOX News and Limbaugh will magnify the worst tendency in any human), to feel secure about what they would do with their guns.  Not to mention the stupid,  listening to a redneck describe how he forgot to put the safey on or the trigger lock in his gun laying on the front seat and how in a quick stop it hit the floor and shot a big hole in the floorboard lets you know you are never really safe from stupidity let alone malice.

    •  Unfortunately this stigmatisation (13+ / 0-)

      ...of mental illness seems to be a concerted response: I wouldn't be surprised if it had some lobbying backing

      But of course, US incidence of mental illness and per capital spending on mental health, is very similiar to the UK. Yet your homicide rate is 5 times ours, and gun death rate 100 times.

      Yet, in an attempt to deflect from the obvious problem, there is no group who won't be vilified

      Meanwhile, enjoy this from the Gun Owners of America

      "Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands"
      http://www.specialguests.com/...

      DaFuq?

      The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out now!

      by Brit on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:39:52 AM PST

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      •  How do you reconcile your comment with this? (0+ / 0-)
        In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.
        The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:
        The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
        It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
        The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
        It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.
        But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
        In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.
        Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/....

        ====
        Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
        Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/....

      •  Yes. I first saw the mention of mental illness (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Brit

        in a diary here; two days later I hear it coming out of the mouth of Joe Manchin.  I am afraid this real concern--b/c we don't really deal well with mental illness here in the States--is becoming a simple tool for deflection of gun restrictions.

        A thousand Sharkeys are invading a thousand Shires every day across our country.--James Wells

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 02:50:52 PM PST

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    •  Oh, I seem to recall that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, Orinoco, this just in

      long knife wielders in Rwanda were pretty darned 'deadly efficient' not all that far back in history. But one person? Definitely the lack of a gun makes them relatively less deadly efficient.

      And come to think of it, just a minor nod to the history of concerted evil in this world could remind us that whole segments of societies can descend into murderous madness if encouraged to do so. That might be something we ought to consider when thinking up 'proper' responses to Newtown.

      •  Mobs can be deadly (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, blackjackal

        even if armed with nothing more than stones they pick up off the ground.

        But play this out: suppose a Rwandan had a rifle to protect his family, and shot into the mob threatening him and his wife and children. Suppose even that he killed rather than wounded several of them. Would the mob stop, drop their long knives and peaceably go back home? Somehow, I suspect that mob would become even more enraged at the loss of some of their own, and the gun wielder and his  family would still end up dead.

        There is no equivalence between a mob and an individual.

        "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

        by Orinoco on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:48:15 AM PST

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        •  True. And in the case of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Orinoco

          American crazies, the individual can have access to much more deadly weaponry. So it takes just one, not a mob. Deal is, we sure seem to have more than our share of crazies (usually described as 'loners') who seem to believe the number of other humans they can take with them when they go somehow make a difference in their final destination.

          Or something. Don't understand how crazy people think, I've just noticed they all seem to have gone to the same crazy-school.

          •  I suspect the share of crazies (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Joieau

            is pretty similar across different societies. But in societies with strict gun laws, the crazies wind up collecting cats or empty spam cans or stacks of 'pre-approved' credit card applications.

            I think it only seems like we have more than our share because the empty spam can collectors don't wind up in national news as often, and they rarely hurt anyone, unless you count bringing down neighborhood property values.

            Even so, greedy 1% speculators did a lot more damage to neighborhood property values than crazies ever could.

            "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

            by Orinoco on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:54:18 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Was in Atlanta over the weekend, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Orinoco

              kid's entertainment at a mall big there. Lots of families and kids, didn't see any let-up in that, but people were definitely hanging on to those kids tightly and were paying attention to everything going on around them. Security was highly visible too, much more so than in the past but no one was complaining. I never shop at malls, only hang out in them while working, which is seasonal.

              What an awful, awful thing to happen during Christmas season. I hope we learn our lessons well this time, DO something about it for a change. It's a tragic loss of innocence as well as innocents.

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