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  •  That's not the argument they made . (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Miggles, Steve Canella

    They were saying "now".

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 05:55:37 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I have had the argument made to me (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      indycam

      That gun control now is bad because those historic laws prevented black people from owning guns.   Couldn't tell but thee re felt to be an undertone of accusation that I was being racist for dismissing that as a policy argument.   Maybe not though

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:00:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Those laws were put in place in part (13+ / 0-)

        To facilitate the convict leasing system.

        The writer Douglas A. Blackmon described the system:

            "It was a form of bondage distinctly different from that of the antebellum South in that for most men, and the relatively few women drawn in, this slavery did not last a lifetime and did not automatically extend from one generation to the next. But it was nonetheless slavery – a system in which armies of free men, guilty of no crimes and entitled by law to freedom, were compelled to labor without compensation, were repeatedly bought and sold, and were forced to do the bidding of white masters through the regular application of extraordinary physical coercion.[4]

        White-collar conservatives flashing down the street, pointing their plastic finger at me..

        by BOHICA on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:04:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It was clear , gun control is racist . (0+ / 0-)

        People who are for gun control hate people of color ...

        They made their bull shit argument very clear .

        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

        by indycam on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:08:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  indycam, the first laws to ban guns (9+ / 0-)

          in the US were passed specifically to keep guns out of the hands of minorities.  That's a fact. ISTR that the NAACP filed suit against several makers over "Saturday night specials" ... but I don't know the outcome of that suit. The suit alleged "cheap" or "inferior" guns were heavily marketed at low prices to encourage violence in some communities.

          Is there still some city in America where you are required to own a gun?

          LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

          by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 07:24:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Kennesaw, Georgia (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            43north, KenBee, p gorden lippy, fuzzyguy

            More info here.

            But almost 30 years after the law was passed, it is still in place and still popular, not least because Kennesaw’s crime rate has remained disproportionately low, even as the town’s population swelled from 5,000 in 1982 to almost 35,000 now. According to the latest FBI statistics, Kennesaw recorded 31 violent crimes – mainly robberies and aggravated assaults – during 2008. In other similar-sized local towns the figures were much higher – 127 in Dalton and 188 in Hinesville. For property crimes – largely burglaries and thefts – Kennesaw recorded 555 while Dalton had 1,124 and Hinesville 1,802.
          •  So you are one of the people who claim (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Laconic Lib

            people who are if favor of gun control are racists ?

            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

            by indycam on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 08:18:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I am one of the people who's aware that (11+ / 0-)

              the original purposes of many gun control laws were in fact specifically to keep arms out of the hands of people of color in the USA.

              People who are in favor of gun control may be operating out of a lot of motives, just like people who oppose gun control.

              LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

              by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 08:35:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I did ask what the past held (0+ / 0-)

                I asked about claims of racism today based on a persons advocating for gun control .

                Do you believe in laws about marrige ?
                If so are you a racist because some marrige laws in the past were clearly racist ?

                "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                by indycam on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 08:44:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I believe people ought to marry who they love (4+ / 0-)

                  as long as both participants are consenting adults. I'm actually old enough to remember miscegenation laws, and I thought they were stupid.

                  LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                  by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 08:51:09 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So you believe "consenting adults" (0+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Hidden by:
                    Steve Canella

                    should be the law re marriage ?
                    You do understand that racists used marriage laws to harm people ?
                    You are advocating for marriage laws ?
                    Are you a racist ?

                    Do you see the flaw with that game ?

                    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                    by indycam on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 08:56:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm advocating against child rape, forced marriage (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      43north, Yamara, fuzzyguy

                      and other abuses of the marriage laws, including banning marriage equality.

                      What game do you think you're drawing me into?

                      Laws have been used to harm people of color. I admit that. I hope we are able to stop that. To that end I am a Democrat and I support efforts to change or repeal those laws to prevent further harm.
                      Laws have been used and are being used to harm women. I admit that. I hope we can stop that. To that end I am a Democrat and I support efforts to change or repeal those laws to prevent further harm.
                      Laws are being used to harm the GLBTQ community. I admit that. I hope we can stop that. To that end I am a Democrat and I support efforts to change or repeal those laws to prevent further harm.

                      LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                      by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 09:11:07 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm not drawing you into a game . (0+ / 0-)

                        I'm pointing out a game played by others
                        and how that game is wrong and offensive .

                        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                        by indycam on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:16:51 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  are we on the same side here? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          fuzzyguy

                          you've confused me.

                          LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                          by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:33:40 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm trying to get you to see the whole , (0+ / 0-)

                            if you support gun control you are a racist , is just a flawed game .
                            I used the same "logic" , if you can call it that , with marriage laws to point out the flaw in the argument .

                            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                            by indycam on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:23:21 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  if you support gun control laws as the sole (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            fuzzyguy

                            situation you're not approaching this realistically.

                            If you support racist laws, draw your own conclusions.

                            Gun control laws have racist history.

                            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                            by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:07:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ... (0+ / 0-)
                            if you support gun control laws as the sole
                            situation you're not approaching this realistically.
                            Is this incomplete ?
                            If you support racist laws, draw your own conclusions.
                            Please point out what laws can't be used by racists to do their racist crap ?
                            Driving laws ? Driving while black ?
                            Rape laws ?
                            Murder laws ?
                            Drug laws ?

                            If we do away with every law that a racist can use to screw people over , we will have next to zero or zero laws left .

                            I was told , if I understand correctly , sawed off shotgun laws and explosive rounds laws are racist . Do you agree that they are racist ?

                            Gun control laws have racist history.
                            Marriage laws have a racist history ...

                            We can go around and around on this , but I'm loosing interest . The flaw in the game has been exposed .

                            "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                            by indycam on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:30:04 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I've already lost interest, because (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            fuzzyguy

                            your point is so cryptic it doesn't reach me.

                            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                            by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:26:34 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  And Republicans also freed the slaves. (0+ / 0-)

                Things change over time.

            •  A large number of people in California were fine (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, Laconic Lib, fuzzyguy

              people openly carrying their weapons until black people started doing it too. Like the Black Panthers. So many conservative Republicans led by Governor Reagan began to advocate for gun control. But the Panthers only armed themselves in the light of police brutality against black people. And for the Panthers this was a show of force, a signal that they were no longer willing to be pushed around. But the Panthers openly carried rifles, not concealed weapons. Like an ad hoc police force to force the police to think twice about abusing a black citizen.

              So there is some historical justification to the point that some gun control was racist in nature. But that was before the days of cheap, readily available hand guns (Saturday Night Specials). Which only helped the criminals and their gangs.

              •  And hey, once a bunch of white kids get killed (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fuzzyguy

                then it's time to talk about gun control.  And then people rant about assault rifles even though handguns are a much bigger problem in regards to gun violence.  But people equate these sort of mass killings with gun violence even though they make up a minuscule percent of total gun violence.

                The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:16:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  adding costs can be seen as classist and racist (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TiaRachel, AoT, fuzzyguy

            that was the argument made I believe.

            You will see the same well meaning arguments now for screenings, testing, classes and taxes and fees and all that...to control qty of guns by making them soo costly: all costs lots of money, therefore fewer guns, hence citizens safer.

            Who has lots of money? Who doesn't?

               That's why gun access law arguing can be called classist/racist, in that is has an effect on the abilities of people with less means to defend themselves, should they so chose.

             In that rkba I think diary may have been where Denise told about her grandad facing down the KKK with his double barrel shotgun one of my favorite stories of defensive gun use...where nobody was shot.

            And also, there is the setup that the (white) FBI did with the Oakland BP where they infiltrated guns to and armed the BP through the Asian fella they knew...and pretty soon...the rest of it, a bigger story of guns, police and Oakland BP, one I am not informed enough to tell.  We can't forget that part of the story....there's so much more...

            This machine kills Fascists.

            by KenBee on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:02:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Also because of the general (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KenBee, fuzzyguy

              attack on people of color through the "justice" system that also restrict access to guns for people of color.

              The fact is that gun control in the US is about as racist as pretty much everything else.

              The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

              by AoT on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:18:06 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  the Supreme Court case (4+ / 0-)

        Cruikshank vs. US, upheld the KKK's right to disarm their black victims.  So yes, the disarming of black people in blatantly racist cases in the 19th century is being used today as the precedent for why gun control is constitutional.

        It's been a hundred years, isn't it time we stopped blaming Captain Smith for sinking the Titanic?

        by happymisanthropy on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:37:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is a stretch (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Debby

          Since it doesn't address the policy merits one little bit

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:49:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  which merits of which policy? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            James Kresnik, 43north, fuzzyguy

            The "collective rights" interpretation of the second amendment is a complete lie, fabricated in order to justify a supreme court decision just as racist as Plessy was.

            It's just as wrong as Plessy, and should have been reversed even more emphatically than it was in Heller.

            It's been a hundred years, isn't it time we stopped blaming Captain Smith for sinking the Titanic?

            by happymisanthropy on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:55:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh I see (0+ / 0-)

              It that the argument you are making.    Bizarre

              Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

              by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 07:03:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Bizarre? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                James Kresnik, 43north, fuzzyguy

                yes, it is bizarre that the Supremes tied themselves into pretzels arguing that separate and unequal fulfills the 14th if you simply spuriously claim that it is equal.

                And it is bizarre that the Supremes tied themselves into similar curlicues in Cruikshank.  The rights that Justice Taney said would belong to black people if they were recognized as people, could nonetheless be denied to black people in spite of the 14th amendment, because they magically had never been rights in the first place.

                Bizarre.  And true.

                It's been a hundred years, isn't it time we stopped blaming Captain Smith for sinking the Titanic?

                by happymisanthropy on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 07:33:35 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  you've never read Cruikshank (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  FogCityJohn

                  I can tell.  Because that bears very little relationship to what it says about the second amendment.

                  In fact there's a good deal of cruikshank that is still good law.  But I guess requiring specificity in criminal charges must be racist too?

                  Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                  by Mindful Nature on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 07:40:43 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  so then (0+ / 0-)

                    you agree with the dissent in Cruikshank?

                    It's been a hundred years, isn't it time we stopped blaming Captain Smith for sinking the Titanic?

                    by happymisanthropy on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:09:38 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  To tell the truth (0+ / 0-)

                      It is not a model of clarity.  The opinion and case are very fact driven, so it is hard to judge just how ore textual the holding was in fact.   However, both the opinion and "dissent" ( procedurally i believe it would be called a concurrence today) are as a technical matter concerned with how specific the allegations must be in an indictment to be valid.  The general discussion seems fairly Uncontroversial on its face, just from a quick read of its impenetrable writing.  Even today, charging people under statutes without saying what acts constitute a violation is critical.  Where the dissent goes awry seems to be in not permitting the indictment to go forward without specifying which right the offenders sought to violate.  That's tough because the proof would require mind reading.   It's a ridiculously narrow reading and such a bar would make hate crimes very hard to prosecute.   I know Heller discusses the second amendment as a federalism- fourteenth amendment issue, but I think this particular one has the most relevance to hate crimes legislation.  Not sure if it is dead letter now in that body of law though.  

                      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                      by Mindful Nature on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:09:28 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

    •  The push to ban "saturday night specials" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fuzzyguy

      was definitely racist and classist, so that's recent past if not present.

      It's been a hundred years, isn't it time we stopped blaming Captain Smith for sinking the Titanic?

      by happymisanthropy on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 06:35:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So anyone who wants gun control now (0+ / 0-)

        is a racist ?

        "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

        by indycam on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 08:15:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  where did I say that? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fuzzyguy

          if keeping guns from poor people is done because we think poor people are especially dangerous and crime-prone, I think there's a little bit of racism there.

          If keeping guns from poor people is done as a first step towards keeping guns from as many people as possible... then the NRA is exactly correct in calling it a step down what is intended to be a slippery slope.

          It's been a hundred years, isn't it time we stopped blaming Captain Smith for sinking the Titanic?

          by happymisanthropy on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:02:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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