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View Diary: How Australia Eliminated Gun Massacres. A New Position for the Democratic Party (45 comments)

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  •  pop quiz (7+ / 0-)

    where in australia's constitution is the right to bear arms explicitly protected?

    u.s. population:  311,591,917

    australia:  22,620,600

    i get that studying existing gun control laws is useful; some systems are more efficient than others, etc.

    but the blanket comparisons between the U.S. and other countries is kinda silly.  

    Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

    by Cedwyn on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 09:19:39 AM PST

    •  Good God, must another country be 100% (3+ / 0-)

      identical to us for us to even consider some aspect of their laws that work?  We get it: Australia is not America.  But that's no reason to slam the door then and there.

      •  No, the point is more that the USA is (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Miggles, bontemps2012, BachFan

        extremely xenophobic and unlikely to even consider something once it comes out that some other country does things that way.

        You, know like adopting the metric system or universal health care coverage - things that essentially all of our peer nations have.

        Bottom line - we're special so don't do anything to disrupt that!

        •  Really, we're not that dumb. (0+ / 0-)

          And its not like they're French.

          "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

          by bontemps2012 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 10:11:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  It is still 1950, right? (0+ / 0-)

          Right?

          It seems to me that much of our national position on a number of issues is still rooted in old concepts of the world. In many key areas, other nations have surpassed us.

          If we are the supposed to be the "greatest nation", (based on our "greatest generation" and "leader of the free world" name tags) shouldn't we acknowledge that we have some catching up to do?

          Let's learn from our friends. Australia has a ton of similarities to us. I can't think of many countries which share as much of our rebellious, independent philosophies.. certainly not Euro members. We have far worse examples to use.

          I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. - Thomas Jefferson

          by MightyMoose on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:59:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  i slammed no doors (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happy camper, erush1345

        my issue was only with "blanket comparisons."  and i'm sorry, but it is a little silly to look at what works for a populaton of 22,620,600 and decide it can be effectively extrapolated to a population 13 times as large.

        especially on the question of gun control in the face of the second amendment.

        Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

        by Cedwyn on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 09:56:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  But in that line of argument, isn't it is just as (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bontemps2012

          silly to justify a year 1800 interpretation of the 2nd amendment when we had a population of 5 million, give or take?  After all, that would require an extrapolation to a country 60 times as large.

          Back to the original point: the Australian law and their perspectives on it would serve as a great starting point.  The Biden Commission can certainly take into account population differences to see if that would have an impact.  But seriously, that's going to be like second order.

          •  and i acknowledged that in my original comment (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bontemps2012, erush1345
            i get that studying existing gun control laws is useful; some systems are more efficient than others, etc.
            But in that line of argument, isn't it is just as silly to justify a year 1800 interpretation of the 2nd amendment when we had a population of 5 million, give or take?  After all, that would require an extrapolation to a country 60 times as large.
            no.  the 2nd amendment has been a part of THIS country since inception.  it has grown with us; nothing was extrapolated.
            A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
            the right was enumerated, regardless of how dated the supporting statement might be.

            Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

            by Cedwyn on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 10:30:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then mortars, tanks and machine guns (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Miggles

              were invented. Tasers were invented. And regulated.

              We also regulated the bejesus out of swords.

              "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

              by bontemps2012 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 10:56:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Practicality (0+ / 0-)

              So.. will the 'well regulated militia' be up to the task of standing up to Marines, drones, tanks, and aircraft carriers?

              I didn't think so.

              I see that the founders did not see any point of separation when they created the 2nd Amendment. Back then, militia == army. We didn't have a standing army. We needed every citizen to stand up and take part. Now we have a volunteer military force bigger than the next 7 nations combined.

              I'm sorry.. what did you want that AR-15 for again?

              Military/civilian weapons didn't need separate categories in the 1700's. Technology demands separate categories now. Overthrowing a 'tyrannical government' is a noble idea in our Constitution, but seriously...

              Is that realistic? To hell with the current debate... lets say you, as a private citizen, can have any weapon system you want. Guns, artillery, tanks, fighters, bombers...nukes..

              Are you really expecting to stand up against the U.S. Government if it really wants to take you down?

              What are you fighting for anyway? The right to pretend you are an action hero?

              I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. - Thomas Jefferson

              by MightyMoose on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:24:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  You're engaging in common sense. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Miggles

            Routine usage of inductive logic.

            These guys would argue with the logic book.

            "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

            by bontemps2012 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:55:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  He's simulating rightie no-brain whining. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Miggles

        They're quite good at that. Comes from listening to Limbaugh ???

        Of course since this system works in Australia then it will work here. They drive on the other side of the road, but otherwise the cultures are similar and the underlying problem is identical.

        The burdens on gun owners are trivial compared to the burdens on people who get shot and on their families.

        "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

        by bontemps2012 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:52:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •   Australia bought back over 600000 guns. (5+ / 0-)

      there's only 300 million guns in America and at an average of $500/gun (some guns are terribly expensive and you won't buy them back on the cheap) that's $15 billion.

      We waste more than that trying to suppress a weed.

      So a gun buyback is quite feasible in this country. $15 billion isn't much anymore. We can probably print it up in a morning, since we won't end the expensive war on non-fatal weed.....

      The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

      by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 09:39:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Where in the U.S. constitution (2+ / 0-)

      is the right to keep and bear arms immune from regulation?

      •  Hey...we damaged and limited the First and the 4th (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bontemps2012, happy camper

        Americans cheerfully submit to pee tests and email snooping -

        Those constitutional protections are all but gone - I imagine all the other amendments are about as secure.....

        The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

        by xxdr zombiexx on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 09:46:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  where was that claim made? n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happy camper, erush1345

        Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

        by Cedwyn on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 09:53:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe I misunderstood- (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bontemps2012

          you seemed to be implying that the Constitution would be an obstacle to considering or adapting the gun laws of other countries if those other countries do not delineate a specific right to bear arms. And in terms of some specific regulations, that could be the case.
          You seemed to be making a broader argument, but again, maybe I read you wrong.

          •  no, you've got it (0+ / 0-)
            the Constitution would be an obstacle to considering or adapting the gun laws of other countries if those other countries do not delineate a specific right to bear arms. And in terms of some specific regulations, that could be the case.
            that is exactly the case.  because the 2nd exists at all, there are limits to limiting gun ownership.  and also that because the 2nd has been with us from the start, imposing new laws isn't as easy as it was for australia.

            Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

            by Cedwyn on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 11:02:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  As long as we get to smear shit (0+ / 0-)

              on the faces of pro-gun politicians every election cycle and every time there's a mass murder, then this will work itself out.

              "Gun rights" is a bullshit issue.

              Making it easy to buy guns. Easy to get ammunition. Easy to kill people.

              Bullshit.

              And now this is going to be a tipping point issue. The death of it for these NRA-backed whores.

              "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

              by bontemps2012 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:02:55 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

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