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View Diary: PA Shoooting Spree at the Same time as NRA Presser (4 Dead) (277 comments)

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  •  As much as I am in favor of having a gun reform (13+ / 0-)

    conversation, I appreciate your comment because I don't want to lose sight of the issue of needed mental health reforms either.

    The President has said something similar, and I agree with him on this: we must stop violence through a multi-pronged approach, and to not do that is really just negligent.

    No salient aspect of this conversation should go undiscussed after Sandy Hook.

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    by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:31:04 AM PST

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    •  it is frustrating to see it get lip service though (5+ / 0-)

      there are no mental illness services bills that were immediately introduced, and just a passing sentence in obama's speeches.  There has been no action.

    •  Are we talking policy, or are we talking cultural? (6+ / 0-)
      needed mental health reforms
      In terms of our policy, I'd say we're currently stuck in the 1950's.

      In terms of how our culture views mental health and illness, we're trapped in the dark ages.

      If we can make the cultural sea change, policy will catch up. Best policy in the world isn't going to help if we don't lose the stigma.

      This past week has me deeply discouraged.

      •  Because the conversation gets pushed back (4+ / 0-)

        from the Left as "pro-NRA" it has been hard to discuss. It's not Pro-NRA, however. It's smart. And it needs discussing. I like the distinctions you raise a lot here about cultural reforms and stigma vs. education combined with actual policy reforms. This is vital to clarify and both parts need addressing.

        Thanks for this bit of distinction. I will remember it.

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        by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:45:41 AM PST

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      •  I'd rather have the policy first and then work (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dan667, CA wildwoman

        on the stigma.

        **Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does** h/t Clytemnestra/Victoria Jackson

        by glorificus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:54:43 AM PST

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        •  Amen !! n/t (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          glorificus

          Best way to change stigma is to make effective mental health treatment more available, so people can see that biblical demons are not a cause & illness is not 'a character flaw' in most cases.

          Something that doesn't make good sense, makes bad sense. That means someone is being deliberately hurtful & selfish. Look for motives behind actions & words.

          by CA wildwoman on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 09:50:18 PM PST

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    •  It is all too easy (7+ / 0-)

      to dismiss mental health reforms when it's seen as derailing or deflecting needed gun control legislation.  Both are needed.  Addressing one does not and should not mean abandoning the other.

      Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.

      by winsock on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:50:30 AM PST

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    •  mahakali, in truth, I have no clue what drives the (0+ / 0-)

      sane, or insane to violence upon innocent children, themselves, or others.  

      •  The drive is a mystery, the vehicle is quite clear (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        foucaultspendulum, CA wildwoman

        Guns and Ammo.  

        Attention clinging warm gun fetishists.  Trade in your gun for Viagra.

        Anthrax, atom bombs, and personal drones.  

        Even free speech and religon have reasonable limits.    

        These irresponsible people have to face the death and destruction they cause others.  

        Barack Hussein Obama- Don't Mock the Constitution.

        by odenthal on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 01:42:48 PM PST

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      •  Disordered thinking and unreasonable (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        foucaultspendulum, CA wildwoman

        emotional responses or disinhibition to their thoughts. I don't think the sane (I dislike that term -- I mean here the non-psychotic, roughly) commit acts of gun violence toward children unless there is some other social force at play that creates organized violence en masse, such as we see with the military at times, with militias, with genocides, and sometimes with gang violence. Non-socially-sanctified violence committed by an individual is due to problems thinking, reasoning, and feeling clearly and appropriately in response to a given situation. This can occasionally be due to organic issues that are not mental illness but are brain tumor, injury, endocrine problems when extreme, toxicity, etc. but in the absence of these, the usual cause is a small group of known psychiatric disorders that almost every mass murderer has been afflicted by.

        If you've ever known someone who was suffering from psychosis, paranoia, delusional thinking, or hallucinations, it's easy to see what causes these sorts of people to commit acts of violence that are senseless. There isn't much mystery to this other than what causes some to suffer certain thought disorders and others not to, certain types of delusions and others not to.

        I would caution people against using the broad term "mental illness," which includes almost every one in it to some degree other other. I think the issue is, of course, dangerous and disordered thoughts which arise from usually schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorders, and sometimes extreme mania, all of which are fairly treatable.

        I don't know what Adam Lanza suffered from. We will probably find out in time. He had medical records, obviously. He had known problems. He may not have been diagnosed, of course, because these problems can arise in young men of his age. If he had other issues such as Aspergers, that could have masked their diagnosis since he wasn't very communicative with many people.

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        by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 04:01:53 PM PST

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        •  mahakali, I agree with your caution against labels (0+ / 0-)

          May I include any bias towards those with Aspergers'?

          I'll refrain from a full force frontal attack on the stupidity of your learned opinion.  "If he had other issues such as Aspergers, that could have masked their diagnosis since he wasn't very communicative with many people."

          It's my hope you are not representing Ms. Oliver.

          •  I'm not following your comment (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CA wildwoman

            Who is Ms. Oliver?

            I hold very strong support for those with Asperger's and feel that they've been oddly included in this all. It's as irrelevent that Adam Lanza had something like Asperger's as it is that he had brown hair. The only possible relevance is if, because of his Asperger's, no one paid attention to his other, non-Asperger's problems (if he displayed these; we don't know). Or, he could have been misdiagnosed.

            This is why I say we ought to really wait for medical records information.

            But setting Lanza aside for a moment, having followed mass murders for years, the issue of disordered thinking/psychosis has been distinct in almost all of these cases. We can walk historically down the line and see this.

            It's of interest to me for the reason which I've noted before: my uncle was an untreated schizophrenic who was violent and harmed others and then killed himself. His father was a treated schizophrenic was was violent but then received care and did not kill himself.

            I hold no stigma toward anyone with mental illness. I am angry with the United States for its failure to adequately protect people with certain serious psychiatric problems, to fail to help these folks, and to let them wind up victimizing others as well because of this failure. I've written about this extensively over the past week or so.

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            by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 04:47:41 PM PST

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