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View Diary: OWS Monitored as Terrorist Org by FBI (99 comments)

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    •  I bet they have a dossier on us (14+ / 0-)

      And I still remember what I thought was an agent provocateurin the 1st meeting ever of progressive bloggers in Los Angeles back in 2005.

      Perhaps we should do a FOIA on ourselves.

      Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

      by Shockwave on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:10:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yep, . . . (6+ / 0-)

      . . . and it appeared the same pattern emerged.  I have worked with antiwar Quakers and participated in some of the Occupy encampments.  In both instances we knew we were being monitored, watched our watchers doing it.  I hope their file cabinets are strong enough to hold up more file cabinets.

    •  i was worried about Occupy Wallstreet at first (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wader, AaronInSanDiego, bontemps2012

      they were wearing Guy Fawkes masks and camping out on wallstreet.  the few of them that were writing on daily kos those first nights were saying that V for Vendetta was their exposure and inspiration for wearing the masks.  that didn't exactly assuage my worries, because that movie is about a girl being kidnapped and brainwashed into detonating a bomb that destroys a government building.  

      i had a gut sense that these were just well meaning, but geeky kids who just thought the masks looked cool and fancied themselves bad ass looking wearing them, but that's as far as it went.

      but i was still wary, because we were in the middle of the worst recession since the Great Depression and the rise of the tea party, a group of modern subversive racism fueled by hate for the first black president.  the western world economy was swaying in the balance.  the arab spring was beginning.  and the number of instances of dramatic public violence seemed to be increasing at an alarming rate.

      that much shit all happening at once should make anyone think twice about a group of angry white middle class young men wearing Guy Fawkes masks to protest wall street.  

      but it didn't take long for me to realize that my gut sense was right and that occupy wallstreet protesters were good peoples.  :)  

      that said, there most DEFINITELY some mentally disturbed people who joined occupy wallstreet around the country and who warranted keeping an eye on.  but they were a tiny minority amongst the well meaning people who were just trying to have a voice.  

      so long and thanks for all the fish

      by Anton Bursch on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:46:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  anyway i am happy the FBI investigated Occupy (0+ / 0-)

        anytime people use violent symbols during a protest it's just plain prudent to find out what is going with the group

        i suggest that the next time we have a social movement that violent symbols are left out of it

        those guy fawkes masks were scary to a lot of people.  i was in the crowds at local rallies and i watched how people responded to the masks.  i saw people who were a part of the rally avoiding walking near people in the masks.  and i saw kids looking particularly nervous around the masks.  

        so long and thanks for all the fish

        by Anton Bursch on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 01:56:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  How do you manage to get through breakfast? (10+ / 0-)

          Do you have to cover up the pictures of Cap'n Crunch and Frankenberry on your cereal boxes?

          •  There's a group of people in the US who think (8+ / 0-)

            everyone wearing a Guy Fawkes mask is a dangerous cyber-terrorist in the employ of demonic Psychiatrists.

            They only number 10 to 15 thousand, but some of them are pretty famous.

            "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

            by JesseCW on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 02:37:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  are you asking if i am afraid of masked geeks? (0+ / 0-)

            which is what the boys wearing masks at occupy wallstreet turned out to be.  no.  i am not afraid of a bunch of white middle class white boys wearing masks while camping in the park.  but in the early days of occupy wall street it wasn't clear who was behind the masks.

            look, when you put together a group of people to protest economic injustice and you show up wearing masks that symbolize violent protest then people are going to wonder if the group is a mere peaceful protest of the beginnings of a pitch forks and torches mob.

            you know, we all had just spent a couple years holding our breath that nothing violent was going to happen at the tea party rallies where people showed up with Obama is hitler signs.  don't act like there was no context for being concerned about occupy wallstreet at the beginning.  

            bankers working on wall street were reported to have been asking their bosses if they should be concerned about coming to work because their lives were in danger.  and we've all seen that even the biggest losers can show up in public with a gun and shoot people.

            and in any case, it's the goddamn job of protestors to WIN OVER people.  not to make people worry about whether they need to be concerned about the protestors.

            so long and thanks for all the fish

            by Anton Bursch on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:32:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Are you also happy about the undercover (10+ / 0-)

          agents who infiltrated Occupy for the sole purpose of committing vandalism and other acts of violence?

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 02:37:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  i don't know anything about that (0+ / 0-)

            so long and thanks for all the fish

            by Anton Bursch on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:34:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Check out what happened at Oakland. (0+ / 0-)

              There's no such thing as an American wing of "Black Bloc." That's rightie provo action, wearing a disguise last seen with the Baader-Meinhof Gang in Germany decades ago.

              And the Air & Space Museum provo action October 2011 in Washington D.C. Confessed as a provo action online by Patrick Howley, an employee of American Spectator, a notorious racist political rag.

              Provos are a continuing problem. Not likely to go away.

              "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

              by bontemps2012 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 07:22:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  Dude, (11+ / 0-)

        you know as well as I do that the folks advocating most strongly for violence in most lefty movements work for the Feds.

      •  If the FBI is investigating enough people and (6+ / 0-)

        organizations to make you feel comfortable, that's evidence enough for me that they're going way, way too far.

        "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

        by JesseCW on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 02:35:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  what is your problem with me, JesseCW? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bontemps2012

          just come right out and say it directly and let's get it over with.  your comment is dripping with contempt for me, so, tell me what you want and let's see if i am willing to do it.  do you want me to agree with you?  do you want me to leave daily kos?  do you see me as your enemy?  do you see me as just an idiot who has no clue and accidentally stumbles into getting in the way of whatever the fuck reasons you have for being here?

          just stop playing your games and face me like a man and tell me what you want.

          because what I would like is for you to have the courage to stop being passive aggressive with me.  

          can you do that?  or do i have to put up with this shit from you for the coming decades here?  

          so long and thanks for all the fish

          by Anton Bursch on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 09:44:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think there's anything at all passive (0+ / 0-)

            about my responses to your advocacy for a more authoritarian form of government.

            "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

            by JesseCW on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 10:26:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  i thought so. your problem with me is baseless. (0+ / 0-)

              i have never advocated for a more authoritarian form of government.  

              review my diaries and comments.  there is not a single instance of what you are claiming that you are not at all passive about responding to.  

              then come back and tell me that we don't have a problem with each other.  unless you have other problems with me.  then let's deal with those.  or we can deal with those right now too.  i'd really like that.  get this over with before new year's and you and i can start fresh without the bullshit.  

              what do you say?

              so long and thanks for all the fish

              by Anton Bursch on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:07:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  here's the list of things i advocate for (0+ / 0-)

                1. equality for gay, lesbian and transgender people
                2. equality for women
                3. equality for ethnic and religious minorities

                4. preventing religions organizations from wielding political power
                5. preventing the balance of power from being based on sex, race, religion or wealth

                6. promoting a culture that values both individual achievement and community responsibility
                7. promoting a culture that values peace
                8. promoting a culture that values art and science
                9. promoting a political culture that values compromise and cooperation over constant conflict

                10. protecting the weak from the strong who try to hurt them or take advantage of them.  for example, disabled people in group homes who are being neglected, women in the work place who are being sexually harassed and young workers who are verbally abused by employers.

                11. punishment for crimes such as rape, child molestation, domestic physical and psychological abuse.

                I support a lot of other things to varying degrees, but this list is what I advocate for.  This list is what I am passionate about.  And you know nothing about me if you think I would advocate for a more authoritarian government.  I don't know enough about you to know if you even have a clue what it feels like to suffer under authoritarian abuse, but I can tell you that I suffered under it for half of my lifetime.  To have you accuse me of advocating for it... it's like telling a rape victim that they are advocating for making rape legal.  

                so long and thanks for all the fish

                by Anton Bursch on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 11:51:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  12: FBI Harrasment of people who are willing (0+ / 0-)

                  to actually put their asses on the line to bring about change.

                  At a certain point, pretending that the abuse your parents dealt to you somehow gives more merit to your arguments in favor of torching the 4th Amendment just gets old.

                  You're getting cut a lot of slack already because of that history.  You're treated with kid gloves - by several dozen people that I alone am aware of.

                  It's just not a substitute for argument.

                  "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                  by JesseCW on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 01:01:03 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  see, that is completely basless (0+ / 0-)

                    i have never advocated for FBI harassment of anyone ever.  please, show me in my diaries and comments, your ONLY source of information about what i think, in which i have advocated for FBI harassment.  you can't, because it's not there.

                    for the moment, i am going to set aside your personal comments about me and focus on something productive.

                    i think i know what your problem with me actually is.  this is assuming all good things about you.  and it's very precise, so, you can't just get a sense of this and react or you'll probably misunderstand.

                    i think you talk about issues to advocate your well thought out positions on them.  you come to daily kos to join with or rally others to advocate with you.  i would say that the majority of well known people on daily kos are exactly the same as you.  i would also say that the majority of people in this community are exactly the same as you.

                    i don't do that.  i approach daily kos as a community to have discussions about issues.  i listen more than i talk.  i absorb.  i learn.  i am very open minded and i expect to change my mind.  i put out thoughts to question and to challenge what others are saying.  even the things i feel passionate about and do advocate for in life i come here with an open mind about.  

                    so, for instance, when i write a comment that i can see a good reason for checking out occupy wallstreet, it's just like my having said it in a conversation with my friends.  i am not advocating for shit.  i'm just saying something i am thinking.  nothing more and nothing less.  i write what i am thinking and feeling in the moment when i write on daily kos.  that's probably why i have no following here but still get diaries on the rec list about a dozen times a year.  there are other people who are thinking and feeling the same thing and i happened to express it for them.

                    look, i was raised in church.  listening to sermons 3 times a week.  i get the value of preaching.  i respect it.  it's just that it's not really me.  i was going to be a preacher, finish school, interned.  but i was always more interested in exploring things than in pushing for things.  don't get me wrong, i would jump to do things to help people.  which is why i talk about politics here instead of other places, because here i also get opportunities to do something to help.  like donate money or make calls or send emails.  i like discussions and actions.  

                    you know, i make video games.  it's a combination of art and science.  my job is to invent things.  so, for me, that means taking a look at things with an open mind but also aimed to solutions.  that's how i am here too.  

                    one more thing.  this is a difference i have with my wife.  i  imagine i have it with you too.  i think out loud.  i figure things out by talking about them.  it's a personality thing.  my wife thinks things through and then says what she's concluded.  sometimes we cross wires because we forget this difference in each other.  she thinks my statements are conclusions.  i think her conclusions are just thoughts.  but we figure it out.  

                    i'm hoping that you and i can figure this out too.

                    as for my past.  i don't use my past to win arguments.  i offer my past to discussions because it's a part of why i think and feel what i do.  it's intimate and it takes a lot of courage for me to share, but i have opened myself up to this community.  i trust this community.  if you know people who have my life experience you might know what it means for them to trust people.  but i offer up my past either when i think it is useful for illuminating something we are having a discussion about, in the few instances where i was sharing my heart with this community, and in a few instances where someone has accused me of being something that really wounds me personally because it's accusing me of being like the people who hurt me and i get personally defensive.  i don't offer it up as some attempt to win an argument.  frankly, i rarely care if i win arguments unless they get personal and it's about whether i am a good person or not.

                    anyway.  i gotta go and get christmas food for tomorrow.  i hope this does something to solve the years long conflict between us.  i am really tired of it.

                    so long and thanks for all the fish

                    by Anton Bursch on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 02:21:40 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  anyway, happy holidays to you and your family (0+ / 0-)

              so long and thanks for all the fish

              by Anton Bursch on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 07:29:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  He's hinting to paranoia. (0+ / 0-)

            Fear of OWS smelly protestors.

            Fear of Quakers, probably not.

            "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

            by bontemps2012 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 07:24:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  At least a half-dozen "mentally disturbed" (0+ / 0-)

        at Zuccotti were off-the-shelf long-time police infiltrators.

        Good actors.

        And we had a couple hundred homeless people come down for the free food. Like everywhere.

        Once upon a time America had mental health services and we cared about these people.

        "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

        by bontemps2012 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 06:38:18 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  This is no surprise (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      akze29, kbman, Creosote

      they actively recruited OWS people with their informants. I know from personal experience. :(

      ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

      by Kristina40 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 04:17:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  My view is that suppression of OWS has been (5+ / 0-)

      nationally coordinated.

      But that's just me.  

      The hungry judges soon the sentence sign, And wretches hang, that jurymen may dine.

      by magnetics on Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 07:11:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Infiltrators stand out like Mormons (0+ / 0-)

      at a St. Patty's Day parade.

      Quakers in the D.C. area learned their infiltrators' names over the years, during the Vietnam protests. Exchanged greetings, put them on mailing lists. Went for courtesy in all things, of course.

      OWS had a different problem in addition to infiltrators: agent provocateurs, some from extremist groups here and at least two right wing European efforts. The arsons in Oakland were committed by fake/costumed "Black Bloc" right wing provos. Occupy Security was able to collect photos of these provos and document use of military hand signs, similar to European right wing provo actions as a Genoa Italy.

      When Occupy Wall Street had the office down at 50 Broadway, in the AFT union building, there were more infiltrators on site than "real" OWS lefties and students.

      It got to be a game.

      The crazy background stories from the infiltrators were collected up by Occupy Security, together with photos and video. Anybody want to believe that there are $40,000-a-year part time jobs over in Brooklyn, working for an oil recycling company ???

      Or the 20-something gal who flies back and forth from Arkansas, now and again trailing her own professional camera/video crew to memorialize her participation in OWS events ?

      Or the middle-aged guy carrying signs who claims he's opposing Bloomberg full time, that he's Turkish-American, that he has critical information, then gets into sabotage/theft and quick cell phone conversations in Arabic ? A cutie, that one.

      Or the contingent of crooks (a.k.a. Travelers, Irish gypsies) who set about using OWS to scam money by the several thousands of dollars from donors ?

      Or even OFA, who tried to take over the mechanism for generating protests ? That got stamped out quickly.

      Or the legal asssitance folks, who had their own infiltrator who asked severally who the leaders were for the OWS movement ? Like nobody would notice that turd-in-the-punch-bowl question.

      We had more infiltrators -- apart from the food and protest and health operations -- than we had honest full-time volunteers.

      Didn't slow down OWS a bit. What it did hurt was making alliances with established left/center organizations. Wrecking alliances looks to have been the # 1 Priority for the various infiltrators. That and claiming that OWS was a violent organization.

      We also had a half-dozen agent provocateurs show up in NYC. Thankfully they were not well set up for arson or mechanized mayhem. One group had connections with O'Keefe and his pack of loons -- that bunch connected to the single most dangerous event of the Zuccotti occupation. Quick response avoided injuries.

      But even so, Occupy Security (subsequently "OWS Deescalation" at NYCGA) had made contact with NYPD and US Park Police early on to counter these tactics. The USPP guys have the most experience by far. They're head and shoulders above the better cut of PERF police management resources. OWS listened carefully to what USPP advised, adopted the PERF crowd management advisory, and nobody got killed.

      Getting nobody killed is good.

      After the Air & Space Museum provo-driven riot in October 2011, discussions with USPP led to sensible efforts within OWS to combat provo actions on the East Coast. A similar effort at Frankfurt in Germany produced a unique solution with riot police removing their helmets and walking ahead of the crowd of protestors to protect them.

      Brilliant police work, that. Occupy Oakland should have been so lucky....

      OWS NYC didn't even have a point of contact at Oakland, back then, to get out what was being learned. Today, OWS is better at it all around. OWS even learned a couple things from the Quakers.

      "We have done nothing to be ashamed of. We have nothing to apologize for." NRA 12/14/2012

      by bontemps2012 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 06:28:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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