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  •  Which is why statists like the one provided by (1+ / 0-)
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    high uintas

    the Guardian are two-edged swords used in this debate. Plenty of other poor countries with guns don't have those numbers. It's ridiculous to say the availability of guns has no bearing on gun deaths but making blanket assessments ONLY on that data point does a disservice to the debate. It's a complex problem and I firmly believe that using, or more correctly misusing, statistics hurts our efforts to reduce gun deaths.

    To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

    by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 02:00:41 PM PST

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    •  rAmen (1+ / 0-)
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      ontheleftcoast

      "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

      by high uintas on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 02:15:08 PM PST

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    •  which economically developed democracies (0+ / 0-)

      have gun death rates like ours? which economically developed democracies have gun ownership rates like ours?

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 02:19:32 PM PST

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      •  How about Argentina? (0+ / 0-)

        According to the UN they, like the US, rank as 'Very High' in the HDI (Human Development Index) and despite their ranking as 62nd in gun ownership they have a higher rate of firearm deaths (3.02 v. 2.97). See, cherry picking based on statistics is always going to lead to results like that. I want to reduce the number of guns and gun deaths but I don't see how this line of argument is going to lead to it. I just don't.

        To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

        by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 02:26:07 PM PST

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        •  argentina (0+ / 0-)

          is still considered a developing economy, and the villas miseria hold over 2/3 of a million people. such staggering poverty is unheard of even in the u.s., and such villas are where much crime concentrates and originates.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 02:33:59 PM PST

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          •  And the US has 2,000,000 people in prison (0+ / 0-)

            Stop this. For every "fact" we throw out in this debate there is a counter to it. The problem doesn't come down to numbers and statistics. Do you want to lower the number of gun deaths? I know I do. But I can't see how debating it this way is going to succeed. I think we need to do things like end the drug war (which would have a positive effect on the murder rates in Latin America), reduce poverty, improve education and opportunities for all. That will lower our gun crime rate and murders committed with guns. Or are you against doing any of those unless you have statistics to back it up?

            To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

            by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 02:45:01 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  sorry (0+ / 0-)

              apples to apples. argentina is not comparable to the united states. europe, japan, australia are. economically developed democracies have many problems, but they are very different from developing countries.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 02:57:40 PM PST

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              •  And the millions we cram thru prisons makes us (0+ / 0-)

                comparable to Japan, Europe, or Australia in what way? Your argument comes down to "For the set of criteria I'm willing to consider the US is horrible" That is the very definition of cherry picking. And you will never convince the gun owners of this country by doing it. And I notice you carefully avoided answering the last half of my comment. Should I make the ridiculous inference that you don't really care about lowering deaths from guns unless you get to do it your way? Why is reducing guns the only way you think we can solve this problem? Because it seems you're fixated on that as the one and only solution to the problem. I'd love to see gun ownership rates go down but with the current SCOTUS I see zero chance of that happening thru legislative means. So rather than expend political effort on what I see as pointless I want to tackle the problem in a way I think will succeed.

                To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

                by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 03:06:37 PM PST

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                •  i wasn't aware (0+ / 0-)

                  that our prisons distribute guns to prisoners. pandemic poverty, lack of infrastructure, and enormous slums however breed crime and make it impossible to track criminals. australia and britain responded to mass violence with strict gun control and look what happened.

                  The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                  by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 03:41:28 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  If you think there is no connection between (0+ / 0-)

                    the massive US prison population, poverty, and gun deaths in this country then you need to do some serious soul searching.

                    To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

                    by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:37:28 PM PST

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                    •  there is some (0+ / 0-)

                      but anyone who thinks our lack of gun control isn't the primary reason- by far- of our rates of gun violence needs much more than soul searching.

                      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                      by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:44:53 PM PST

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                      •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

                        When the murder rate of black males in this country is 20X higher than white females you think the primary reason for gun deaths in this country is mostly the availability of guns? You just claimed that poverty is the driving force in other countries where even far lower gun ownership rates result in far higher gun deaths. Yet here, we're somehow different? That poverty, the prison system, and other factors can't significantly contribute to the gun death rates here?

                        To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

                        by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:56:19 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  um (0+ / 0-)

                          once again, ignore context. apples to apples and you might find your way to the right track.

                          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                          by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:12:35 PM PST

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                          •  I'm saying poverty kills (0+ / 0-)

                            Regardless of the country. That's as "apples to apples" as I can get. Because you need to ignore that fact to make your point only diminishes your argument.

                            To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

                            by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:14:29 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  try again (0+ / 0-)

                            poverty in this country isn't remotely as extreme as in the developing countries. which is one of the reasons they're considered developing. it's as if you're standing sweltering on a blazing hot day, desperately looking for reasons as diverse as people breathing and plants decomposing, while ignoring that big yellow thing in the sky.

                            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                            by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:26:25 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

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