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View Diary: There will be no default on the national debt (113 comments)

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  •  No (17+ / 0-)

    he's not wrong. That's what the 14th Amendment states, very clearly.

    What part of this did you not read?

    4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
    This "cliff" is a ruse. And the sooner we all understand this and stop listening to bullshitters, the better off we'll all be.

    It is time to #Occupy Media.

    by lunachickie on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:53:17 AM PST

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    •  There is a "cliff" and then there is a ceiling. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      renbear, Larsstephens

      Different animals.

      For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

      by Anne Elk on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:08:57 AM PST

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      •  Then say what you mean (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timothy J, JesseCW

        if it's a "ceiling" we've been talking about all this time, then why is it being referred to ad nauseam as a "cliff"?

        The point stands--it's a ruse by the corporate bullshitters.  

        It is time to #Occupy Media.

        by lunachickie on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:47:48 AM PST

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        •  Because the "Celing" is (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timothy J, lunachickie

          a regular feature that can be dealt with administratively, and the so-called "Cliff" requires primary legislation, and was deliberately put there, by both sides, to get a budget deal done ... or else!

          The Debt Ceiling isn't real. It is an artifice that has no meaning for two reasons ....

          The legislation authorising the spending supercedes the previous ceiling limit AND as the spending has been already authorised by Congress, the 14th Amendment means simply that the debt is valid, and can not be defaulted.

          It's high time the President simply said so.

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          by twigg on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:07:33 AM PST

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          •  Politics depends partly on whether (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Simplify, salamanderempress

            there is consensus that a given arrangement is in effect or not. If both sides agree that there is a cliff, then there is a cliff. Sure, there isn't a physical cliff, but there is agreement, for good or ill, that a cliff exists. Ergo, there is a cliff. Why there is a cliff is open to discussion, but there's no denying that a cliff was created by the White House and the Congress, and that both sides accept that it is, and will be, in effect until something is done to change it.

            I should also point out that, on a similar basis, the President agrees that the 14th Amendment does not apply to the debt ceiling. Not to say that it couldn't be argued  to apply, but no one is making that argument outside of the government. On that basis, the 14th Amendment is irrelevant currently.

            For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

            by Anne Elk on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:54:29 AM PST

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            •  And the emperor's clothes look mighty fine. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lunachickie

              Both parties say so, and so it is!

              Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

              by Simplify on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:59:38 AM PST

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              •  That's politics for ya! (0+ / 0-)

                For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

                by Anne Elk on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:00:48 AM PST

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                •  We need more loudmouth innocent children (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lunachickie, JesseCW

                  Don't give up on objective reality.

                  History teems with instances of truth put down by persecution. If not suppressed forever, it may be thrown back for centuries. [...] Persecution has always succeeded, save where the heretics were too strong a party to be effectually persecuted. [...] The real advantage which truth has, consists in this, that when an opinion is true, it may be extinguished once, twice, or many times, but in the course of ages there will generally be found persons to rediscover it, until some one of its reappearances falls on a time when from favourable circumstances it escapes persecution until it has made such head as to withstand all subsequent attempts to suppress it.

                  - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                  Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

                  by Simplify on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:07:38 AM PST

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                  •  That's the point: it is objective reality. (0+ / 0-)

                    There is a cliff precisely because both sides agree that there is a cliff. It came into being because there was an agreement to create one. Going around saying that it's a figment of someone's imagination is about the same as saying that announcing your engagement to be married is non-factual because it's just an agreement between two parties. There is no object you can point to called "engagement"! I find this constant raging against the financial cliff's existence to be somewhat quixotic.

                    For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

                    by Anne Elk on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 02:08:21 PM PST

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                •  You'll have to (0+ / 0-)

                  excuse some of us who find flippancy to this end to be a very large part of what's wrong with our party.

                  That's politics for ya!

                  It is time to #Occupy Media.

                  by lunachickie on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:41:27 PM PST

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      •  So many seem to still confuse (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens

        the issues. People don't get finance all that well here, but to minimize something as serious as this out of ignorance is really dangerous. obama knows the difference between a debt ceiling, a deficit, and the fiscal cliff, so I am not all that worried.

    •  umm (0+ / 0-)

      the debt won't be "authorized by law" if they don't raise the debt ceiling.

      so you are wrong, lunachickie.

      •  But there's no default (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lunachickie

        Shutdown, maybe, but no default.

        Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

        by Simplify on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:08:14 AM PST

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      •  Sure it is. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Simplify, PhilJD, JesseCW

        All government expenditures have their basis in laws.  The executive doesn't just get to spend money congress hasn't said should be spent.

        Now it's true that the debt ceiling causes a conflict between laws - one saying spend this money, the other saying you may not spend this money.  So it seems to me in that situation the president has to decide which of congress' conflicting mandates he'll follow.

        “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

        by jrooth on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:52:41 AM PST

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        •  Here's hoping (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW

          the one based on the Constitution is the one he follows.

          He can do that, and he should, if he has to. The economic terrorism has to stop.

          It is time to #Occupy Media.

          by lunachickie on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 01:58:09 PM PST

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