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View Diary: Why Do Fundy Christians Love the Rich and Hate the Poor? (324 comments)

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  •  There is actually an intellectual consistency to (13+ / 0-)

    predestination:  If you believe in an all-powerful diety that knows the past, present, and future, then it only makes sense that he has it all planned out.  Our lives then really aren't our own - we are simply an audience to whom god is slowly revealing his wisdom in what is little more than a really awesome theatrical production.  We each experience a part in this revelation, but our rolls are assigned by god and not to be questioned.

    I think it is all bunk, but if you truly believe in an all-powerful diety that can see past, present, and future, predestination makes sense.

    To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

    by ban48 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:25:46 PM PST

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    •  Well, not exactly. (3+ / 0-)

      Predestination is more like being a parent of a little child.

      If you are around little children, you can pretty predict that if you put a bright red ball on top of a table and tell your four year old to leave it alone, then walk into the other room, you can bet your bottom dollar that iwthin a minute of leaving, you'll hear the ball hit the floor.

      The little child will reach for the ball, because that's what little children do.  We as adults will sin because that's our shiny red ball.

      Predestination does not preclude free will.  We still make our own decisions  But God, in his perfect knowledge, knows us well enough to know which decisions we will choose to make.

      •  so if this god knows I will make bad choices (7+ / 0-)

        and not be a believer, then he allows me to be born knowing he is sending me to an eternal hell?

      •  Free will is an illusion if the outcome is known (5+ / 0-)

        by god beforehand.  And if god doesn't know the outcome, he isn't omnipotent.  You can try to mix the two concepts all you want and/or shrug it off as a divine mystery (as most people do), but that is just punting on an inconsistency and trying to have it both ways.  If it is predetermined, you are just along for the ride.  You are strapped into a roller coaster but think you are driving because, you know, that god puts on one heck of a show!

        Besides, what good is theater without an antagonist.  If you truly believe in predetermination, then hating a murderer is analogous to hating an actor for portraying a murderer.  After all, god is simply revealing life in all of its beauty and horror, and someone needs to play the bad-guy.

        Again, I think this is all bunk, and I am an atheist.  But there is a logical consistency to it that I'm sure many find appealing.

        To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

        by ban48 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:12:13 PM PST

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        •  This is not the point at all (1+ / 0-)
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          Just because you can know an outcome doesn't mean you control the people involved.  

          If I show a tea partier a racist cartoon about Pres Obama, I absolutely know he/she will laugh.  If I show the same cartoon to a progressive, the progressive will not laugh.  

          Does that mean the racist does not have free will?  

          •  If one is omnipotent... (0+ / 0-)

            ...then not acting is acting. Just because God is trying to pass responsibility off on someone else doesn't mean he's not responsible if indeed he's ominipotent.

          •  If you stab someone in the heart, what they think (1+ / 0-)
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            is irrelevant.  They have no free will in the situation, they just die.

            Same thing for the racist and the cartoon.  If you train your mind to immediately react to stimuli a predictable manner, you are removing your free will.  So yes, the racist in this situation lacks free-will because he can be made to laugh on-command given a picture.  What do you think the whole point of racism is?  It is to replace free-will with knee-jerk reaction and create a mindless following.

            Predestination sits well with people like this because they already lack will-power in many situations.  Thanks for the example :)

            To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

            by ban48 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 12:06:05 PM PST

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      •  A parent is not like a God (1+ / 0-)
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        Only Needs a Beat

        even children figure that out by the time they're 7 or eight. A parent doesn't control the universe, or even his or her own destiny much of the time.

        "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

        by Alice in Florida on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:03:47 PM PST

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    •  Of course if he's the all-knowing sort (0+ / 0-)

      why does he bring down such horrors upon the Jews? I mean the least he could have done is give them better hygiene advice in Leviticus. Michael Moore did a brilliant job of satirizing this in one of his communiques here. If anyone has it or remembers it, please post. It's a riot.

      I never liked you and I always will.

      by Ray Blake on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:03:17 PM PST

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    •  Being able to know past, present, and future (0+ / 0-)

      is one thing ... it's another thing to be directing the course of events.  I'm intrigued by that physicists are pondering regarding the possibility of multiple realities, and what this might mean regarding free will.  

      Plutocracy (noun) Greek ploutokratia, from ploutos wealth; 1) government by the wealthy; 2) 21st c. U.S.A.; 3) 22nd c. The World

      by bkamr on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 12:31:31 AM PST

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