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  •  I do not believe in organized religion. (21+ / 0-)

    Of any sort. But I do know that there is something powerful and wonderful out there.
    Some force that, as you said, "science wouldn't be able to explain."

    Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

    by JoanMar on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:49:07 PM PST

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    •  And I believe it's best left at that. (5+ / 0-)

      It's NOT for us to try to explain.

      It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

      by karmsy on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:53:42 PM PST

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      •  Really? (4+ / 0-)

        REALLY? It's not for us to explain how things happen in our world? That's really messed up, karmsy.

        As I see it, out ONLY duty during the flicker of life we have been lucky enough to have been granted is to do just that: to figure out how things in the world work, including things like humans, and to make it possible that future generations of future humans don't have to re-invent the wheel in order to relieve pain and suffering-- as well as to make possible happiness among our progeny.

        It is to deny the charge and disavow the merit of science to claim that ANYTHING is out of bounds for us to try to explain.

        "It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important." Martin Luther King Jr.

        by Arabiflora on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 12:04:16 AM PST

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    •  FWIW, I myself do believe in organized (12+ / 0-)

      religion. I'm a devout Catholic who goes to church more than 50 times a year. I really do believe, based on incredibly intense personal mystical experiences.

      None of those, by the way, involved drugs.

      And FWIW I think I understand how nutty that sounds to people who have not pursued, and been blessed with, such direct experiences of God.

      When I talk about my belief in God, I'm not speculating or whatever; I'm speaking from direct experience and knowledge.

      •  Going to Mass once a week is now the definition (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tommymet, corvo, tytalus

        of "devout"?? IIRC that's about the minimum of what's required of a practicing Catholic. Well, that & dropping sufficient cash in the basket every week. (FTR the "One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church" of my youth was far more interested in the latter than the former--you could've sent in a collection envelope stuffed with bills & slept in for all they cared. From what I can tell that didn't change under Wojtyla & sure as hell hasn't under Ratzo.)

        It's not a "fiscal cliff," it's a Fiscal Bluff--so why don't we call them on it?

        by Uncle Cosmo on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:56:47 PM PST

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        •  Nasty and stupid comment. But you knew (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vcmvo2

          that when you posted.

          •  Might be nasty, but it isn't stupid. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tytalus, AoT, Smoh, Mathazar, Uncle Cosmo

            There's a reason why nonattendance at Holy Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation is a mortal sin in the United States, but not in countries like Germany, Austria, and Italy.  And that reason is the church tax collected by the state and forwarded to the churches in those latter three countries.  Holy Mother Church gets Her cash, thus obviating the need to require, on pain of eternal damnation, the attendance of Her faithful at Holy Mass.

            •  You don't have to put anything in the basket (0+ / 0-)

              Registered parishoners get envelopes for that purpose, at least one for every Sunday and holy day of obligation, but you can refrain from giving anything and still be a registered parishoner.

              "I've had all I can stands, and I can't stands no more." - Popeye the Sailor Man

              by congenitalefty on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 09:20:51 AM PST

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              •  But of course. (0+ / 0-)

                Nonetheless, peer pressure -- and tradition -- work their magic on enough of the faithful.

                Face it: If nobody attended Holy Mass in the United States, Holy Mother Church wouldn't get squat.  She obviously is getting more than squat from her American faithful.

                •  "Getting more than squat" is the only reason (0+ / 0-)

                  neither JP2 nor Ratzo has excommunicated 90% of U.S. Catholics. They tolerate "cafeteria Catholicism" for the filthy lucre.

                  Money & power have been the overriding interests of "Holy Mother Church" for at least the last thousand years.

                  It's not a "fiscal cliff," it's a Fiscal Bluff--so why don't we call them on it?

                  by Uncle Cosmo on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 04:21:43 AM PST

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          •  It comes with the territory (0+ / 0-)

            when you swear fealty to a nasty, stupid, venal, inhumane institution--something you must have known for years, if you have two functioning synapses to rub against one another, & yet you soldier on...

            It's not a "fiscal cliff," it's a Fiscal Bluff--so why don't we call them on it?

            by Uncle Cosmo on Sat Dec 29, 2012 at 04:25:39 AM PST

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    •  What "science wouldn't be able to explain" (6+ / 0-)

      is your brain, and it's ability to create what appear to be concrete things and experiences from nothing at all.

      I'm an epileptic. Before I was controlled by medication I used to have vivid visions of myself doing unpeakable things to myself...while completetly awake and otherwise lucid. I could see myself gouging out my eyes, or biting off my fingers. It was so real...but it wasn't. My fingers weren't in my eyes, or my mouth. I just perceived it. It was real...to me.

      Anything that you use to make yourself a better person is fine with me. If it makes you treat yourself, and everyone else better, then more power to you. It's real to you...that's all that really counts.

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