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View Diary: Actually read the documents released by the FBI about OWS (319 comments)

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  •  Of course you don't Adam (12+ / 0-)

    And that is what makes discovery so difficult at times.

    But, you also don't take the cherry-picked docs and just shrug your shoulders and say, "Well then. Nothing to see here. We were mistaken all along. Just move along."


    One may live without bread, but not without roses.
    ~Jean Richepin
    Bread & Roses

    by bronte17 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 11:11:27 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  That is a good point (13+ / 0-)

      But you ALSO don't take the SAME cherry-picked docs and claim in sensationalistic fashion that they are PROOF POSITIVE of collusion between the administration, banks, FBI, Homeland Security, et al.  Those documents prove NOTHING, yet the other two diaries claim they prove EVERYTHING, and people inside those threads ate up the accusations as if they were gospel.  Groupthink is an apt description of that.  

      •  When the Occupy movement was in full bloom (11+ / 0-)

        there were many here who questioned how it was possible for the simultaneous crackdown on the same night of the Occupy protests in Seattle, NYC and Colorado (if I remember correctly). It may have been LA on that night.... I dunno.

        Many here asked how it was possible for the authorities to sweep in their crackdown across these cities on the same night when the police in several cities had not been ironfisted before that night.

        I know this for a fact because I stayed up all night with running commentary about the crackdown in Seattle (following tweets) until sunrise swept us to NYC and Bloomberg was decent enough to call off the ironfist hitting Occupy there.

        And, when we asked about a possible coordination, we were shouted down and told it was conspiracy theory to even think that Homeland Security and the FBI would bother coordinating.

        And now we see they even coordinated with Wall Street and the big 200 corporations.


        One may live without bread, but not without roses.
        ~Jean Richepin
        Bread & Roses

        by bronte17 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 11:24:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They coordinated WHAT? (11+ / 0-)

          FBI action shown in these documents is mostly limited to looking at and warning about potential threats to events (i.e. Tampa convention) or investigate whether  there might be counter action or copycat action from someone (right-wing groups, lonely loon?) to use the peaceful protests as cover for sinister action.   I read through the documents, and the diarist here is spot on about his interpretation of these mostly routine reports.    Why would flimsy "proof" like this suffice for many here?  The accusations against the administration and Obama are so enormous, the conspiracy theories so bizarre, that actual REAL proof is required, not wild interpretation of some unredacted document lines regarding intent or the foggy remarks that the classified documents might just provide the "smoking gun."    

          •  Did you look at the title of the doc? (7+ / 0-)

            Potential CRIMINAL ACTIVITY ALERT is the FBI title of that document.

            And, it leads out with a comparison of the Occupy movement with the Arab Spring.

            And you attempt to deflect our analysis of these FOIA docs by pretending they are "limited" and "routine?"


            One may live without bread, but not without roses.
            ~Jean Richepin
            Bread & Roses

            by bronte17 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 12:03:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  The FBI labeled Occupy as a Terrorist group (9+ / 0-)

            and ISSUED ALERTS that Occupy was engaged in Criminal Activities. Even though the FBI noted that Occupy protests were peaceful.

            You cannot deny that.

            ...from its inception, the FBI treated the Occupy movement as a potential criminal and terrorist threat even though the agency acknowledges in documents that organizers explicitly called for peaceful protest and did “not condone the use of violence” at occupy protests.

            The PCJF has obtained heavily redacted documents showing that FBI offices and agents around the country were in high gear conducting surveillance against the movement even as early as August 2011, a month prior to the establishment of the OWS encampment in Zuccotti Park and other Occupy actions around the country.

            This production, which we believe is just the tip of the iceberg, is a window into the nationwide scope of the FBI’s surveillance, monitoring, and reporting on peaceful protestors organizing with the Occupy movement,” stated Mara Verheyden-Hilliard, Executive Director of the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund (PCJF).  “These documents show that the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security are treating protests against the corporate and banking structure of America as potential criminal and terrorist activity. These documents also show these federal agencies functioning as a de facto intelligence arm of Wall Street and Corporate America.


            One may live without bread, but not without roses.
            ~Jean Richepin
            Bread & Roses

            by bronte17 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 12:09:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  quoting a news story (or source) (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wwjjd, elmo, Ahianne

              that's being questioned as proof the news story (or source) is correct is not exactly convincing.

              47 is the new 51!

              by nickrud on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 12:31:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I quoted the *exact words* from the FBI doc (7+ / 0-)

                Those were FBI words, not mine.

                And I pasted a quote that put into words exactly what the FBI was saying.

                You can't sugarcoat it.


                One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                ~Jean Richepin
                Bread & Roses

                by bronte17 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 12:40:33 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Occupy was engaging in (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  wwjjd, Nowhere Man, JT88

                  'criminal' activities. That was it's freaking point, breaking laws (such as trespassing, blocking bridges, etc.) to bring attention to their concerns.

                  Breaking laws (many of which I agreed with their breaking) is the whole point of civil disobedience. Just because we agree with the actions doesn't make them legal, or 'non-criminal'.

                  47 is the new 51!

                  by nickrud on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 12:46:30 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And why did the FBI label Occupy a terrorist (7+ / 0-)

                    group?

                    What was the point of that?

                    To enable the banks to impound protestors' assets? Or make it difficult for them to sustain themselves?

                    To enable the FBI and law enforcement to more easily skirt legal loopholes that otherwise would protect the protestors?


                    One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                    ~Jean Richepin
                    Bread & Roses

                    by bronte17 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 12:55:44 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  They did not label the entire (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rscopes, emelyn, Nowhere Man

                      OWS movement as terrorist, contrary to the constant reporting. They mentioned, often 'terrorist elements' in OWS. There is a substantial difference there.

                      Now, I do think the FBI and DHS use that term far too freely. Not everyone that uses violence as part of their political protesting (I'm looking at you, Black Bloc) is actually a terrorist. But it can be a fine line.

                      47 is the new 51!

                      by nickrud on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 01:59:32 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  We're just now reopening the examination (5+ / 0-)

                        of the unwarranted and harsh crackdown on the Occupy movement.

                        This FOIA request actually produced some information (while other FOIA requests returned nothing from the FBI). And there are more FOIAs in the pipeline and appeals.

                        Just give it time before you brush off the coordinated crackdown as a conspiracy theory. As has been lobbed for so many months now every time someone asks how and why things happened like they did at an Occupy protest or gathering.


                        One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                        ~Jean Richepin
                        Bread & Roses

                        by bronte17 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 04:31:49 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Someone has a vested interest (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          JVolvo, bronte17

                          in shutting this conversation down. Sources that are well respected in the progressive community and that practice exceptionally good journalism have been critically examining the FBI documents.  The sudden descent of a diarist and commentors who obviously wish to distract the Kos community from the work of people like Amy Goodman is passing strange and warrents some critical observation..  

                          Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                          by tikkun on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 09:29:47 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You are absolutely wrong on this. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bill W

                            I posted a link to the ORIGINAL documents so that people could read them and draw their own conclusions.  The other two diaries relied on third party reporting which is fine but I prefer to look at the source data and make up my mind.  

                            NO ONE is trying to shut down any conversation.  I want as many people as possible to look at the documents.  You don't get to control what conclusion they draw from those documents after reading them.

                          •  You're Right, I Don't Get To Control Anything (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            bronte17

                            but I do have the right to suggest to others that we have more knowledgeable people available to us help us make sense of what we are reading.  We have Amy Goodman, and others like her, who bring together expert witness, if you will, with experience of the politics and culture of these organizations and people who understand the literature.

                            To assume that each of us can draw meaningful conclusions from reading the decuments on our own is a little like saying that anyone can read the Bible and draw their own conclusions...Yes they can but their conclusions are ilkely to be very faulty, misleading and naive.  

                            What I appreciated about the other two diaries is that they gave us a path to knowledgable people who can help us parse what we're reading in useful ways.

                            Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                            by tikkun on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 06:37:10 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Speak for yourself (0+ / 0-)

                            I am smart enough to read the Bible and some FBI documents and understand the gist of them.

                          •  it is called "critical thinking" (0+ / 0-)

                            the other three diaries were an exercise in groupthink.  Reading through the documents gives an entirely different picture than what is being presented in those diaries or from those "well respected" sources.  Sorry, but making up your own mind is desirable over just oohing and awing over "well respected" sources.   Using the bible analogy, I prefer to read passages myself and interpret them myself rather than just listening to someone telling me what the interpretation should be.  

                            The problem here is overreach bordering on hysteria.  So, based on these documents, which have no proof whatsoever and, to me, don't convey what is being "sold" in those threats, I am supposed to join in screaming from the rooftops that Obama should be impeached, the administration was complicit in plotting murder against peaceful protesters, etc.?    

                            Just dreadful.  Make a point, but leave the hysteria out until you have some real proof.  The right-wing tea-baggers are reactionary fools.  I don't like it anymore just because the unproven paranoia is coming from the left.

                •  Wait, what? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ballerina X, elmo, sideboth

                  The words that you quoted here were not from the FBI doc. They were from the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund (PCJF) post regarding the FBI doc. And the PCJF's interpretation of those FBI documents, like Naomi Wolf's, is under question here.

                  Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

                  by Nowhere Man on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 04:08:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Many in the OWS were peaceful, but several (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nowhere Man, joe from Lowell

              were also using the movement for criminal activity.  That can't be denied.  The FBI needs to be aware of the potential for trouble, whether it comes from within the organization (even from right-wing infiltrators who are pretending to be with OWS just to create massive trouble and give the whole thing a bad name) or outside (counter groups itching for a fight.)  

              The point I am making is not about classification, but the bizarre twist to use mostly mundane documents showing that the FBI was on alert to prevent trouble from wherever it may stem to attack Obama as a conspirator to potential murder, call for his impeachment, etc.   If that is the agenda with this sudden onslaught of threads stating the same paranoid theory, then take it elsewhere.  Or bring solid proof, not garbage.  

              •  "... bring solid proof" lies within the bowels (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tikkun

                of the FBI and Homeland Security and private corporations and our banks and universities.

                It is not paranoid to question the coordinated efforts of Homeland Security, the FBI and private corporations to suppress Occupy and the protestors.

                The pattern is repeated... over many decades... and it's not acceptable to go gently into that bad nightmare of fascist tentacles.  


                One may live without bread, but not without roses.
                ~Jean Richepin
                Bread & Roses

                by bronte17 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 01:37:57 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly (7+ / 0-)

          I was there too. I remember the same thing.

          And, when we asked about a possible coordination, we were shouted down and told it was conspiracy theory to even think that Homeland Security and the FBI would bother coordinating.
          I think I also remember denials by the administration about feds coordinating, but I might not be remembering that correctly.  Was there any explicit denial from the administration?


          "Justice is a commodity"

          by joanneleon on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 01:59:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Napolitano and the Three Card Monte (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            antirove, tikkun, JVolvo

            to deflect disclosure of law enforcement operations.

            "Hide the ball" game of misdirection to obscure the Fed role in the crackdown.

            On September 17, 2011, a Secret Service intelligence entry in its Prism Demonstrations Abstract file records the opening of the Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement. The demonstration location that the Secret Service was protecting? The “Wall Street Bull.” The name of the Protectee? The “U.S. Government.”

            American taxpayers might find it odd to learn that the Secret Service was on duty to protect the Wall Street Bull in the name of protecting the U.S. Government. But there it is.

            --snip--

            The DHS, as revealed in the newly released documents, has engaged in what appears to be a effort to avoid looking for Occupy related materials where it is likely to be found, including in Fusion Centers and DHS sub-divisions such as the Operations Coordination & Planning sub-division which is responsible for DHS coordination with local and federal law enforcement partners.


            One may live without bread, but not without roses.
            ~Jean Richepin
            Bread & Roses

            by bronte17 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 04:56:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  No. There is a lot more evidence (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        newpioneer, tikkun, elwior

        on the corporate - Homeland Security cooperation. Bob and I didn't jump to conclusions based on these docs. As Bob pointed out in his diary comments, the organization that integrates corporate security and FBI activities began under Bush in 2005.

        look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

        by FishOutofWater on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 02:13:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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