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  •  problem with this POV is it does not seem (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RonV, VClib

    to take into account the realities on the ground and it offers little ground for discussion

    •  The realities on the ground right now are (5+ / 0-)

      unacceptable.

      It's time to change them. What are your suggestions, beyond "guns, guns and more guns"?

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 03:34:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  you requested responses to your grand proposal (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib

        but I did not know that meant having to submit a grand proposal of my own.  Basically, I find that the best way to deal with a large problem is to break it down so it is a series of smaller problems.  One thing I find helpful with that is educating myself on the topic by discussion and research.

        I would suggest we pick one aspect of the problem, say extended clips, agree on the definition of the vocabulary that will be used and proceed from there.  While overarching problems such as world hunger or climate change may be easy to see, finding a silver bullet to solve them is much more difficult as these problems are usually the result of a series and groups of processes which cannot be tackled all at once    

        •  That's reasonable. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DefendOurConstitution

          I admit I want my grand vision realized yesterday - or, rather, this time last year so we could have avoided Aurora and Newtown altogether. But any step in that direction is good.

          What I'm not good with is defense of the status quo. "BBSA" (But but Second Amendment) is a shameful response and should be as socially unacceptable as smoking in public or offering drugs to children is already.

          "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

          by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 04:02:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  however there is a significant number of gun (0+ / 0-)

            owners willing to discuss restrictions on ownership, just so long as there is an agreement as to the vocabulary used and both sides agree to educate themselves thoroughly on the other side's position and to continue to educate themselves during the course of the discussion.

            •  I believe I have educated myself on the RKBA (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DefendOurConstitution

              position. I don't agree with it at all, however.

              The main two cries I hear from RKBAs are these:

              1) But, but, Second Amendment!

              2) I have a right to defend myself against [fill in scary stereotype not based in reality here]!

              The first is based on a deliberate misunderstanding of the intent of the Founders when they established the Second Amendment. The second is based on fear, prejudice, racism, and frankly stupidity.

              With regards to the first: Wealthy landowners (which is what the Founders were) would not have established a law allowing the citizenry to own weaponry for the purpose of overthrowing the nation or its government. The fact that the phrases "a well-regulated militia" and "necessary to the security of a free state" are in that amendment tells us that the Founders were saying "if you want to own a gun, you have to be in the army and defend this nation in wars." They were NOT saying "you can have a gun so you can shoot anyone that you feel is threatening you." Your home does not qualify as a "free state."

              With regards to the second: People using the self-defense line invariably end up saying "black men" or "Mexicans" when I press them to tell me WHO would break into their nice, middle-class suburban home? Never mind that the crime rate in their area could be (and usually is) close to zero; oh, no. It's those scary black and brown people (read here: if you're not white, you're automatically a criminal) that are going to break into their homes, rape their wives and daughters, murder their families, and steal the good silver. It's bogus. It's bullshit. And it's racist.

              "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

              by Killer of Sacred Cows on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 04:22:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  since I have taken neigther argument (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                VClib

                it is not productive to expect me to defend what others have  said; instead it would seem a better use of time for us to discuss real world related solutions which could be enacted, for example, the discussion of restricting the size of clips available to civilians (noting while clips are magazines, not all magazines are clips)

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